Leading Saints Podcast

Jana Riess is a historian and editor in the publishing industry, primarily working in the areas of religion, history, popular culture, ethics, and biblical studies. From 1999 to 2008, she was the Religion Book Review Editor for Publishers Weekly, and continues to freelance reviews for Publishers Weekly as well as other publications. She holds degrees in religion from Wellesley College and Princeton Theological Seminary, and a Ph.D. in American religious history from Columbia University. She grew up with no religious affiliation and became a Protestant in high school. While going to college to become a pastor, she converted to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Her book, "The Next Mormons: How Millennials are Changing the LDS Church", came about after starting a Kickstarter campaign to fund a survey to learn about Millennials in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Highlights * 6:45 Millennials are leaving religion * 7:30 Retention rate of 46%-62% and is trending downward * 8:30 What is a Millennial? * 10:00 What to say to those who say the Millennials will grow out of this phase? * 12:30 What can the church do to retain these Millennials and solve the problem? * 15:40 What part does conformity & obedience have in Millennials leaving the church? * 16:40 The two main reasons Millennials leave the church * 18:35 How do Millennials view the temple? * 23:20 Millennials have a higher rate of ministering * 25:00 Why church? * 26:00 How church meetings could be better & different for Millennials * 27:00 How do Millennials see church callings differently * 28:30 Millennials & religious authority * 32:55 Millennials & the word of wisdom * 33:55 Millennials & temple recommends * 37:15 Millennials & pornography * 40:10 Millennials & the traditional family * 44:00 Millennials and the Prophet and General Authorities * 48:30 Millennials and American exceptionalism * 50:10 What can Millennials bring to our church? * 53:00 What's the biggest sticking point for Millennials going forward? * 56:00 What can leaders do? * 58:00 How has writing this book impacted Jana's discipleship of Jesus Christ? Links The Next Mormons: How Millennials are Changing the LDS Church An LDS Leader’s Guide to Millennial Mormons Transcript Kurt Francom (LS): Today I have the opportunity to sit down with Jana Riess. Jana, you are the author of "The Next Mormons: How Millennials Are Changing the LDS Church". So tell us as far as your personal background and how this project and book came to be? Jana: Sure. This project basically started in 2016. I was very interested in getting solid data on what's going on generationally with Latter-Day Saints and former Latter-Day Saints. And not just anecdotally "here's what I'm seeing in my social media feed." Anecdotally, it felt like more younger people were leaving the LDS faith and for possibly different reasons than older people had left, and I wanted to know if that was really valid, and if so, more about it - everything we could. So along with the help of Benjamin Knoll, who's a political scientist, we crafted this survey, raised money on Kickstarter in order to fund the survey because it's very expensive to try to get valid information that's nationally representative about such a small minority population. Mormons are only about one and a half percent of the United States population. That's how it began. LS: Nice.

Interview transcript is available below Brittany Ellis grew up in Riverside, California, and realized as a young woman that she experiences same-sex attraction. She lives in the Los Angeles area with her husband of ten years and their two children and is in school studying American Sign Language interpretation. In this interview, Brittany and Kurt talk about her journey as an SSA woman and how youth leaders can better approach the subject and work with SSA youth. Highlights 10:10 Brittany’s experience realizing she is attracted to women 11:45 Buried her feelings and decided to focus on being a strong member of the Church 12:00 At age 15, admitted it to her best friends and tried talking to her bishop 13:25 Her bishop’s response did not help 14:10 Dated a lot and eventually met her husband 16:10 Experience dating her husband 17:00 Wanted to turn to her bishop for support as a youth but figured it would be useless so she tried to deal with it on her own 17:55 Loving her husband made him attractive 19:00 Didn’t talk about her SSA as a couple for seven years of marriage but eventually worked on it together and individually with the help of a therapist 20:05 The rollercoaster ride is still there but no longer includes shame 20:55 She journals and uses humor to make it easier and to manage her feelings 21:35 Her husband’s desire to learn and understand has made him a good listener and partner 23:05 We all have a void but the gospel helps fill it 24:35 Like many others, she thought she was the only woman married to a man and dealing with SSA 25:25 Her involvement with North Star International 26:00 Terrified to go to the first conference 26:55 North Star has helped her make many friends and the workshops at the conferences have been a great, always-positive resource 28:15 North Star is now doing regional activities throughout the year 30:00 Discussion of LGBT youth in the Church: 30:20 Poem she wrote at age 15 32:00 Just saying it out loud makes it real 33:25 Vulnerability hangover: it’s freeing to talk about it, but then fearful thoughts come and are overwhelming 34:40 We need to have these hard conversations at church so that we can support the youth 35:20 The vulnerability hangover still happens as an adult 37:10 Leaders need to understand that SSA is not a sin 38:10 No reason these youth cannot participate in activities in the Church and even serve a mission 38:45 As leaders, our job is to help the youth feel the Spirit, which won’t happen if they aren’t there 39:35 Important that the youth can take the lead and establish communication, and for leaders to do it if the youth aren’t ready for that 41:50 Ask them what they need from you and follow their lead 43:50 The youth don’t have a problem with their gay peers. It’s the adults who are concerned. 45:15 Experiencing SSA doesn’t mean they are perverted or attracted to everyone 47:00 Building barriers actually gives the issue power 47:45 Example of leaders and parents overreacting, but the youth weren’t uncomfortable at all 49:05 It’s good to have a connection and include the youth instead of excluding them 50:15 Example of an SSA youth with a girlfriend: establish the rules but don’t prevent them from being there and feeling the Spirit 51:45 Love them even if they aren’t making the best choices. Make the boundaries universal for all youth, not just SSA youth. 53:05 Loving the youth and being inclusive isn’t condoning. Have the awkward conversations. 55:00 It's okay to love your gay child who marries a same-sex partner. If we don’t stay connected to them, who will invite the Spirit into their life? 57:10 Easier to leave the door open for them as a youth than waiting until they are adults a...

Rosie Card is the founder of Q.NOOR, a clothing company that creates temple, baptism, and blessing dresses, and the host of the Q.MORE podcast, discussing questions about culture and doctrine in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. A former model, BYU grad, and returned missionary, Rosie is also the author of "Model Mormon", the story of her experience in the modeling industry and discovering that true happiness isn't found in looking beautiful, but in seeking to become more like the Savior. She recently returned to attending her local ward after years of experience in singles wards. Highlights 5:00 Experience as a model 5:50 The story behind her book, “Model Mormon” 6:30 How and why she started Q.NOOR, creating temple dresses that help women feel comfortable in the temple 9:35 What started the Q.MORE podcast: discussing questions openly in conversations 13:55 People usually just need to know that they aren’t the only one with questions 14:20 Leaders should encourage people to turn to God for answers 17:40 Getting away from making singles wards all about dating 18:15 The sense that single adults need to get married so that they can “join the rest”, when we all actually have the same purpose to become like Christ 20:25 The unintentional message that singles wards exist to push marriage 21:25 Being comfortable with singleness 22:40 The focus on relationship discussions in singles wards needs to be balanced out 23:40 If you want to have lessons on chastity or healthy sexuality, be straightforward about it all instead of tiptoeing around the subjects 26:10 YSA activities are great, but YSA are no longer “youth” 27:10 Sometimes we treat singles like children instead of the adults they are 28:35 Single members are growing and progressing in the same ways as married members, but through different experiences 29:45 Stop it with the date boxes 30:25 Dating committees: We should be encouraging men and women to have the maturity and confidence to date, not facilitate dating for them 33:20 Ward Council that built activities around their network and skills for YSA 34:55 Unintentional disrespect for YSAs: they don’t need adult supervision, they aren’t kids, and they are no less of contributing members in the Church 38:55 Consider: a 28-year-old single adult is as capable as a 28-year-old married adult 40:20 YSAs have more time than same-age married adults-with-children and could potentially contribute even more in a calling, not less 42:10 The myth that a YSA can’t have the same opportunities to contribute or serve in leadership callings in a family ward as they would in a singles ward 45:10 Discussion of what dissolving singles wards could do for everyone 47:25 Sacrament meeting coordinator calling 49:55 Decided the topics, speakers, and order of speakers as a member of the Ward Council 51:40 Local ward bishops could use this to take those tasks off their busy plate 52:25 How she worked with the bishop in the coordinator calling 53:50 Encouragement for YSA bishops: have open and honest discussions with the people in your ward about their experiences there 56:55 Observations of the Church and the gospel from the outside have helped her have more compassion for others who might feel disenfranchised Links Q.MORE podcast Q.MORE podcast with Kurt: Thus Saith the Lord Rosie's book, Model Mormon Q.NOOR.com LDS temple, baptism, and blessing dresses

Kurt Francom, Executive Director of Leading Saints, flies solo for this episode as he talks about some invisible habits some leaders have that self-sabotage their leadership and diminish those around them. Highlights 4:40 Invitation to become more reflective and ask yourself if you are possibly doing some of these things without realizing it 1. Creating a culture of unquestioned obedience to what the leader directs (6:00) * This happens with the best intentions* 6:30 Common example: Primary President doesn't hear about changes in the Primary until it is announced in Sacrament Meeting because the Bishop is not giving them autonomy over their auxiliary* 9:00 From Dan Pink's book, "Drive", three things every individual looks for: autonomy, mastery (becoming proficient at what they do), purpose (my opinions matter; I'm making a difference) What to do about it: * 10:50 Bishops should turn callings over to the auxiliaries, and then the bishopric can facilitate and encourage auxiliary leaders* 13:20 Ask the Ward Council/counselors: How are decisions being made? Is this a problem?* 13:40 One-to-one monthly interviews with your auxiliary leaders and counselors 2. A leader's lack of motivation to acquire accurate self-awareness by seeking-out alternative perspectives and general leadership training (16:15) * 17:00 Self-awareness about your approachability as a leader* Subconsciously sabotaging difficult conversations* 18:15 Story of Seminary/Institute teacher who always had the answer to questions* 19:10 It's not about having the right answer, but about having the conversation What to do about it: * 20:00 Ask, "How approachable am I?" and create a safe circumstance for others to come to you* 20:40 Seek leadership training from every source possible * 21:50 Elder Bednar's leadership skills came from decades of experience as a professor and author, not simply because he is an apostle * 23:30 Pick up a book* 23:40 Seek out other resources such as conferences, websites, therapists, Leading Saints, etc. 3. Providing no venue to experience real connection (27:30) * 28:00 Kurt's experience at Wild at Heart Boot Camp: Men talking and connecting in ways that they don't normally experience in elders quorum* 30:35 "The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation" (Thoreau)* 31:55 Never let a quorum meeting become another Sunday School class; create more connection What to do about it: * 32:45 Create vulnerability* Sit in a circle* 33:35 Stimulate the group with questions* 34:40 Brene Brown's books about vulnerability and shame* 35:55 The leader needs to lead out with vulnerability* 37:20 Vulnerability leads to trust 4. Church/family imbalance: An excessive emphasis on the importance of family responsibility that causes individuals/families to disengage with the Church (and vice versa) (38:10) * 39:45 Quote from "The Divine Center," by Steven R. Covey* 41:25 Culture shifting to putting the family first and losing the balance with church service What to do about it: * 42:40 Talk about this dynamic as a bishopric and as a ward* 43:10 Infuse your ward, Relief Society, or quorum with more purpose/vision 5. Creating unintentional shame (44:00) * 44:40 Shame is the greatest counterfeit that the adversary uses instead of guilt* 45:45 Shame comes with the best intentions but creates a dynamic of unattainable perfectionism * 46:30 Quote from Brené Brown,

Blair Packard is a physical therapist and Cindy is a midwife. They are from Utah but have lived in Arizona since 1976, first in Mesa and now in Gilbert. They have seven children and 25 grandchildren. Cindy learned some Portuguese after starting a nonprofit, Care for Life, based in Mozambique. This came in useful later when they served a short-term humanitarian mission to Mozambique, and then as mission president from 2006-2009. In this interview, Kurt and the Packards talk about how to address primary problems instead of secondary problems in welfare service programs, mentoring and guiding people toward comprehensive self-reliance instead of simply giving them short-term support. Summary 1:40 Church service in Mozambique 4:50 Their experience in a robbery/hostage situation involving President and Sister Nelson near the end of their mission 8:10 How Care for Life came to be 11:00 They couldn’t just do one thing. There were so many needs, and they boiled it down to a need for knowledge and teaching. 12:20 Welfare and self-reliance principles came from their service * Documentary: Poverty, Inc. * When we think we are helping, we are more often creating dependence 14:45 Preventing the primary problem instead of trying to solve secondary problems, going into the “orphan prevention business” 16:50 At first they started an agriculture class, but eventually learned to mentor instead of simply teaching and walking away 17:45 Specialists work with the communities in different areas, setting goals, evaluating, and mentoring over time, much like a ward welfare council 20:50 Make it clear that they are only helping short-term and the community will need to support themselves after that 21:25 Took time to develop the Care for Life “family preservation program” based on the needs of the people, as determined by the community * Eight areas in the program: education, health, and hygiene, food security and nutrition, sanitation, income generation, home improvement, psychosocial well-being, community participation * Over 15 years, they were able to reduce maternal mortality rates in the villages by 78% and infant mortality rates by 57% 22:50 How they did it wrong at first, training birth attendants but not teaching entire villages of families 24:25 The comprehensive problems need to be addressed, and it starts with families 26:20 Kurt: It’s easy to project our perspective on someone else, but the solution needs to come from the people 27:35 Sending toys to Africa: not understanding what the villagers really needed 29:20 How to not project your experience on others: talk with them and observe what they don’t know how to do 32:00 It’s not a matter of intelligence, but a lack of experience and opportunity 34:22 Empowering individuals to believe that they can do this themselves and change their own lives 37:55 They monitor villages for five years after the initial program and see how the people then take ownership and teach others 39:30 It’s not about money but about giving people rewards for doing the work themselves 40:20 Mentoring is ministering 41:15 The self-reliance program isn’t just giving someone a manual, but working with the people to learn the principles 42:30 You have to celebrate success when a goal is reached, giving positive feedback 43:35 Many of the people they have taught skills to have gained the capacity to serve and gone on to be Church leaders 44:40 Maslow hierarchy of needs: begin with the basic needs before they can engage in Church service

Jodi Taylor lives in Anchorage, Alaska with her husband and children, where they both work in real estate development. She is currently Coordinating Council Director of Public Affairs in the area. The coordinating council is responsible for building bridges in our communities, taking the ideas of ministering outside and into our neighborhoods to expand how the church works with community groups. Highlights 7:20 Jodi explains what the church is like in Anchorage. 8:35 Role of stake public affairs to help the stake leaders—but not just within their own boundaries. The coordinating council is there to help the stake public affairs to meet their goals. The public affairs department are the opinion leaders for the area. 10:10 She presents some general principles on how we can be involved in our communities 11:10 Jodi presents a story of stake and community involvement as a family and their coordinating council. She encourages all to find ways to be involved—find a need and fill it. 13:50 How we can find common ground and how the coordinating council helped with the evolution of discussions and changes within the LGBT community and legislation. Importance of knowing key people who can get to know you and trust you. She describes relationships built and a summit that was held to bring experts together. 24:15 It is important to have a dialogue. There are ways to bring our beliefs in the Savior into the activities we are involved in. We all have the ability to make change by doing what matters to us and what matters to others. 25:50 Find an issue that matters to someone else 28:20 We must talk openly about our faith 30:20 Jodi shares story of her teenage daughter who got involved to cause change. We can help make change no matter our age. Utilize social media. 38:55 How you bring something up to others will determine if they will listen. We should acknowledge pain/hurt and concerns—they will listen. The time to be involved is NOW. 42:30 Jody addresses public affairs and politics 45:30 Everyone should get involved. God has designed a role for each of us to add light to our communities. We shouldn’t just pray for the Lord to provide opportunities but we should actively seek them out. 46:45 "It has expanded my understanding of my brothers and sisters and I appreciate the good that each person brings."

In this podcast, Kurt interviews two women with the unofficial leadership calling of Bishop’s Wife. Sister Jill Walker First he speaks with Jill Walker, the wife of Bishop Jason Walker of Phoenix, Arizona. Bishop Walker has been serving for about seven months. They have been married for 27 years, have three children, and have lived in Phoenix for seven years. The Walker family Highlights 4:00 Introduction with Bishop Jason Walker 8:50 Called as bishop and then called again when ward boundaries were changed 9:45 Called shortly after a calling to the high council 10:45 Expectations she had, surprised and confused by new emotions such as feeling jealous of his time away 13:00 Journaled about her emotions but didn’t talk to anyone 13:50 The loneliness of not being able to talk about what he has been doing 14:20 Thoughts that she couldn’t burden him further with trivial family things when he had so many obvious burdens from his calling added to the sense of loneliness Principles of Leadership as the Bishop’s Wife * 16:25 Journal * 18:25 Find ways to help–helps with loneliness * 20:00 Pray–for your husband and for comfort for yourself * 21:20 Spend time together–go with him to anything that is appropriate, but also on intentional dates, to the store, any moment possible * 23:25 Focus on the positive–look for the blessings and personal growth 24:55 Started sharing whatever spiritual moments they can, which has helped their partnership 26:30 She has learned to pay more attention to everyone and be more compassionate Sister Kasandra Merrill Next, Kurt speaks with Kasandra Merrill, wife of Bishop Scott Merrill of Mesa, Arizona. They both grew up in Mesa and have lived in the same ward since they were married. He has been serving as bishop for over four years. Kasandra comes from a large mixed family of 12 children, including step-siblings, and she and Scott have been married 24 years and have seven children. The Merrill family Highlights 30:30 She saw his calling coming but he did not 31:10 The circumstances in their family when he was called: five teenagers who then married or went on missions since his call, plus his busy job and she was in school full time 33:00 The first year was the most difficult for them to understand each other and each other’s roles because they approach life differently 34:00 She could sense the pain of ward members through him, but felt totally alone and unable to share her burdens with anyone 35:10 She was handling and carrying some heavy difficulties with their children all alone 37:00 She felt that he had the mantle of the calling to support him, while she had nothing 37:45 Figured out together how to handle their loneliness together and to share their burdens 38:40 Realized she has angels watching over and strengthening her, too 39:00 They were both called in for his calling as bishop 40:00 They may not have it all together but they are together 41:15 Allowed herself to not parent alone, or to own her children’s mistakes as hers 42:10 Their children all seemed to have had a positive experience with their dad as the bishop, but he let them know that if they wanted to talk to someone else they could go to the stake president 44:00 Don’t dwell on the negative 44:50 Living in a “glass house” 46:00 Her husband has been very private as bishop; she could sense anger and heartbreak but he didn’t/couldn’t share 48:05 Keeping their struggles open instead of private 48:45 Son came home early from his mission and they were open about everything with the ward, eliminating possible shame 50:15 Daughter attempted suicide and they were open about that too,

Tony Overbay began his career in the high tech world but felt the call to become a therapist and help men. For the past 13-14 years, he has been a licensed marriage and family therapist with a practice in Roseville, California. While Tony grew up in Utah, he is an adult convert to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. He has been married 28 years, is a father of four, an ultra-marathoner, host of the Virtual Couch Podcast, creator of The Path Back, and currently serves on the Leading Saints Professional Therapists Advisory Board. Tony Overbay Highlights 12:45 Men in therapy - the stigma, stereotypes 14:40 Treatment of pornography addiction - behavior modification, identifying triggers “crimes of opportunity,” then thought, which leads to action/behavior. Tools to put distance between thoughts and action, initially, then work on thought, but have to deal with core issues to heal. 16:30 Core issues—feelings of inadequacy, not feeling connected to partner, job, or faith, poor health—have to be dealt with to heal from addiction. Go-to patterns of behavior learned in youth 17:45 Men have a harder time connecting, less likely to go to therapy, need to find ways to connect with a therapist first before talking about emotions before talking about the elephant in the room 20:45 "The bishop is not the therapist" mentality brings shame to the table because it doesn’t bring the connection. How can bishops help build connections? Bishops need authenticity and vulnerability to build connection, to avoid shame spiral by pushing to get to transgression immediately. Don’t rush it, show gratitude, build relationships, meet with love. A relationship is more important - can’t go and find another bishop, like a person can go find another therapist 26:20 Perfect Love Casteth Out Fear - Elder Dieter F. Uchtdorf April 2017 - many bishops over-emphasize shame - sprinkling shame glitter - to make them know they did something "really bad." Have to give people hope and remove shame. 27:30 - Brother Tad Callister- guilt is the stop sign. Shame hangs around guilt and isn’t productive, is negative, and makes people feel horrible. Have to change the conversation because will lie when there are relapses 29:20 - Shame - leaders mix up shame and guilt. Shame is "you’re bad" and not "what you did is bad". Pornography addiction - first exposure - 8 to 11 yo - early exposure to pornography is early sexualization, which changes the wiring of the brain because the brain doesn’t know how to process information. Changes their perception of the world, have to understand with it to work with, and will remove the shame. 32:30 - Elder Dieter F. Uchtdorf - minor things take a person further off course over time. What not to say to someone when talking to them because it makes the other person view it as shame and more broken and not empathetic because coming from a different point of view. 33:45 Dr. Patrick Carnes - sexual addiction counselor, sex addiction and pornography can be harder to overcome than drug or alcohol addiction because addictive obsession can cause mood alteration. Sex addicts carry their own source of supply in their brain. Prolonged use alters the brain. Why can’t I get it under control? Bishop asks why and doesn’t understand the why of a person wanting it. Unintended shame happens. 37:20 Double down on the empathy when people share. Jesus saw sin as wrong, but as needs not met. Look into lives of others to see their shortcomings, unmet needs, etc, that aren’t filled that we’re trying to fill. Need to focus on the deeper reason of why we sin and the need we’re trying to meet to become better. Have to help people find something to replace the void. Easier to add things to life than subtract from life. 40:00 - EFT - Emotionally Focused Therapy to connect with a...

Jane Clayson Johnson grew up playing the violin and attended BYU on a music scholarship, then changed her studies to journalism. After graduating, she worked for KSL News in Salt Lake City, then moved to Los Angeles where she was a correspondent for programs such as ABC World News Tonight and Good Morning America. She was later an anchor on The Early Show and a correspondent for CBS. Jane left her full-time job when she married her husband, Mark Johnson, to be a wife and mother. They have two children together and reside in Boston, where she also works as a fill-in host for NPR's On Point. She has written two books, I am a Mother and Silent Souls Weeping. Jane Clayson Johnson Highlights 5:45 About her book, I am a Mother 6:20 Hosts On Point for NPR 6:50 Considers self a storyteller 7:25 Authoring new book, Silent Souls Weeping, on the subject of depression, especially as it relates to her own experience with clinical depression 9:25 Wondered “How can I be so depressed when I am so blessed?” 11:35 After receiving treatment and beginning to feel better, Jane began to speak with others and realize how many people suffer with depression. She began interviewing others, and the book was born. 12:30 All interviews are with faithful Latter-day Saints who have struggled with depression 13:00 Kurt recommends the book for church leaders who are battling with depression, especially since as a leader he did not have any framework to help people who are suffering—no advice to offer beyond “go see a professional”; the book helps him understand different perspectives. 14:25 Jane has learned that we need to reach out and help each other, because so many of us don’t speak about the suffering; feels the worst part of depression is the “profound isolation” 16:30 So often we suffer in silence—it’s where the title of the book comes from, Silent Souls Weeping 17:35 Depression is easy to hide at church 18:00 One bishop made a list of the mental illnesses he saw in his ward and concluded about about one quarter of his ward were affected, and that was just the issues that he knew about 19:35 Depression can block us from feeling the spirit, God’s love 20:10 "It was like the most important part of my soul had been carved out of me" 20:20 When you are depressed and active in a church that often equates happiness with righteousness, depression can be tormenting 22:15 One sister described a sense of desperation, seeking help anywhere, felt depression was a sign that she was somehow unworthy, hypocritical 23:30 Depression happens to us regardless of our circumstances, the loss of the spirit may be the most distressing part of depression and why we need to seek treatment 23:50 Kurt reminds us depression does not only affect those who “don’t understand” the gospel but can affect anyone 24:20 One theme of the book is how depression affects our ability to feel the spirit. Another theme is the stigma attached to depression. 25:25 Kurt tells the story of one sister suffering with depression wished to be in the place of a sister with cancer’s shoes because of the extreme stigma and embarrassment she felt related to suffering with depression 26:30 Jane explains the woman with cancer and woman with severe depression were both admitted to the hospital at the same time—they were sisters. The depressed sister felt like people would treat her and her family differently if she had cancer instead of something stigmatized like depression. 27:25 Depression is not the result of personal inadequacy

Autumn was born and raised in Utah. She met Chris while they were in high school. They have three children, and she is very creative and crafty. Chris also grew up in Utah. When he was of mission age, he told his bishop that he wasn’t going to serve. At a baseball game that same day he very nonchalantly proposed marriage to Autumn. They had been best friends but hadn’t even gone on a single date. Highlights Chris’ Story 6:00 Introduction to pornography and masturbation * 6:20 Differences in accessibility between then and now. * 6:50 Shame caused him to keep it secret. He wanted to approach his bishop but didn’t know how. * 7:30 Sexuality was not openly discussed in his family. * 8:20 He began seeking out pornography * 9:30 Decision made not to serve a mission 10:15 Avoidance tips and how to help your children: have an open relationship with your children, sons and daughters * 10:45 Framing the question: “When was the last time…” as opposed to “If”. * 11:15 Don’t let this be a taboo subject. Statistics show that 90% of children are exposed to pornography by age 9. * 12:00 Talking about these subjects all along mitigates the shame of approaching parents when something happens. * 12:20 When something happens, first express love. * 12:45 Talking to the bishop is not a bad or shameful thing, but is a normal part of the healing process. 17:20 Thought getting married would make addictions go away. Most of his friends in recovery had the same belief. 19:00 Called as ward Young Men president. Addictions triggered, multiple affairs began. 21:20 First meeting with bishop after getting caught, getting released, and the disciplinary council. Wanted to keep from his wife. Confessed only to the one affair, kept all else secret. 23:30 Example of the “addict brain”: he prayed to be excommunicated so that upon rebaptism he could be forgiven of all the other things which he had not disclosed. 29:00 Disfellowshipped. Starts marriage counseling. 29:30 Autumn confronts him about additional affairs, is hospitalized for a suicide attempt. Bargains with God to stop all bad behavior if Autumn lives. She survives. Chris begins disclosing most of his secrets to Autumn. 35:00 Breaking those promises to God. 36:00 The wisdom of allowing time to pass between a traumatic event and holding a disciplinary council. A buffer of time allows for stability and opportunity for spiritual healing. 36:40 Chris’ disciplinary councils were some the most spiritual experiences he’s ever had, and allowed him to feel God’s love, with the love of those in the council. 37:35 Excommunicated. 48:30 Church-sponsored Addiction Recovery Program (ARP) meetings: bishops are encouraged to attend shortly after being called so that they can refer individuals with knowledge of the resource. 1:02:10 Autumn empowers him to finally disclose every detail during a therapy session. True healing begins. Autumn and Chris start their therapy from square one, the real starting point for their recovery. 1:08:00 After full disclosure, commits 100% to church and Autumn. Focuses on falling back in love with her, by * Checking in with her daily. * Praying daily, asking for help to love her again. * Studying his scriptures every night and finding personal application, which he then communicated with Autumn. * 10 years sober, still maintains these habits. 1:12:00 Finally gives self to Christ. 1:13:15 Leaders are there to empathize, connect, and to love--not to fix. Leaders assist members in coming to a point where they are ready to give themselves to Christ. Until members embrace “the formula” for themselves (read, pray, go to church),

Kurt Francom, the host of the Leading Saints podcast, is an adjunct professor at LDS Business College in Salt Lake City, Utah. During the fall semester, he taught a class called Leadership for Life and this episode is the main part of a final project of the course. You will hear from President Bruce C. Kusch, president of LDS Business College, and several students who were in the class. As this semester had gone by his class has gone thru many experiences in which they have been able to grow and change due to the way this style of learning. This new style of learning has been developed with the help of the college president, President Bruce Kusch, to create a new way of learning that they hope to bring to the whole curriculum of LDS Business College. Along with President Kusch and the students, they have been willing to share just how this changed them and made them into young leaders that can go forward in this world and be a light to follow. They have been willing to share some of the principles include: * Becoming Converted to and hard work * How to become unified by leading with friends * Finding the courage to lead by creating a personal vision This Leadership for Life class has grown into a group of leaders that have demonstrated the necessary skills to become the young leaders that are so instrumental to create change in their own lives and the lives of others. We invite you to listen to his student’s experiences as they have grown in his class and how their stories can help you to become a leader through the darkness. You should also consider how you can stimulate an immersive learning environment in your ward and specifically in the lives of the leaders you work with. After listening to this episode we invite you to TAKE A SHORT SURVEY that will help the students get feedback about the quality of the podcast episode (their final project). Links: Learner-Centered Teaching: Five Key Changes to Practices (this is a book that teaches more about immersive learning styles) LDS Business College Website President Henry B. Eyring's Devotional Address Take the feedback survey

Alanna Francom grew up outside of Blackfoot, Idaho, the oldest of seven children. She attended Brigham Young University–Idaho and then decided to become a massage therapist and went to school in Salt Lake City, Utah. She met her husband, Kurt, in a Young Single Adult ward in Salt Lake, and has served alongside him while he was a bishop and in a stake presidency. They have two children. If you are a former/current bishop's wife, consider TAKING OUR SURVEY. Highlights 3:00 How Kurt and Alanna met 9:00 The need for content around being a bishop's wife 11:15 The bishop's wife is an unofficial calling 11:45 When Kurt was called as bishop 13:50 Alanna's perspective on their marriage during Kurt's time in leadership positions 16:40 Changes when Kurt was called to the stake presidency 17:10 Dealing with situational depression 20:40 Leadership principles: Advice for the bishop's wife * Share experiences: Grow in the experience together * It is helpful to know what he is doing and see the purpose of his service * How to share and still maintain confidentiality (25:00) * Make it a family calling (26:15) * Rewarding to participate in visits together * Ask yourself: What sort of bishop's wife do I want to be? * Stake presidents: Invite the family to stand when the bishop is called (29:00) * Look for simple family traditions to incorporate into your service * Finding connection (31:40) * Attended the wards Kurt visited as counselor in stake presidency * Connected with ward members, stake presidency families, bishopric/stake presidency wives lunches * Bishopric/presidency meetings as "guys night out" (35:40) * Possibility of feeling left out * Go out of the way to seek that sort of connection for yourself * Bishops: Allow your wife to have spiritual opportunities at church (38:00) * Sometimes it's hard and that's okay (38:40) * "My wife has never complained" testimony (40:00) * It's okay to give yourself permission to be sad, to want your husband there when he isn't * Let yourself feel the feelings and be aware, and that will help dissipate it (42:45) * Talk about what you're feeling and have real conversations with your husband 45:20 Sharing Leading Saints feedback with Kurt and meeting listeners 45:50 Sharing growth experiences through callings has strengthened her testimony Links Leading Others to be Better Than Happy | An Interview with Jody Moore Be Bold with Jody Moore How I Lead as the Bishop’s Wife | Interviews with Jill Walker and Kasandra Merrill How I Lead as the Bishop’s Wife | Interviews with Jordan Brown and Amanda Fristrom

What a beautiful time of year it is to focus on the birth of our Savior, Jesus Christ. The #LightTheWorld campaign online is one of my favorite parts of this season and we hope that everyone will feel the effects of this effort. I am grateful for the opportunity we have had to team up with other Latter-day Saint podcasters and share of the sweet spirit of Christmas. In this episode you will hear from the following podcast hosts: * Shawn Rapier, Latter-day Lives Podcast * Nick Galieti, Latter-day Saint MissionCast * Zack Cordell, Latter-day Saint Nutritionist * Richie Steadman, The Cultural Hall * Brandt Malone & Jenny Dye, Mormon News Report * Jay & Brad, The Next Step Podcast Other Links: * Lighttheworld.org * Share your December 23 plans

Dustin Peterson is a leadership trainer with Proof Leadership Group and works with organizations to help develop their culture. He is also the author of “Reset: How to Get Paid and Love What You Do”, and coaches individuals to help them get unstuck in their careers. He currently serves in a stake presidency in Houston, Texas, and has previously served on a high council and as an early morning seminary teacher. In this podcast, Dustin talks about why we often believe we don't have talents, and how to identify and put our talents to work to bless those we lead and serve. Highlights 8:00 Calling to the Stake Presidency 10:10 Talents: People believe they don’t have them and don’t know how to identify them; helping people identify their talents is a tremendous gift 11:35 Identifying talents first allows us to magnify them 12:20 Talents are superpowers. They are powerful skills that make you unique. 14:30 Men are that they might have joy (2 Nephi 2:25) 15:10 Parable of the talents (Matthew 25:14-30) * Every person has talents (verse 15) * You can gain more talents (verse 15) * Talents lead to joy (verse 21) * When we are afraid, we tend to hide our talents (verse 25) * Everyone that uses their talents gets more (verse 29) * Those who bury them have them taken away (verse 29) 16:30 Elders Quorum discussion of talents vs. 6th-grade class discussion of talents 19:45 The Broken Paradigm: What’s the problem with identifying our talents? Our mindsets * Deficit perspective: we identify our weaknesses * (22:30) Scarcity belief: a few people have talents and the rest are left behind * (25:30) Humility complex: we overvalue humility when it comes to talent and talk ourselves out of our own talents 28:00 The secret is to be grateful. 29:00 How do we identify our talents? * Definition: Things you do naturally, consistently well. Think energy. * Skills are transferable and can be taught; talents are innate, energizing, and can be developed; a sign of talent is that it is instinctual * 33:50 Talents energize and makes us feel good; we can become highly skilled at a weakness * 34:20 What moments in my calling do I feel energized in? * 36:00 God knows our talents and if we use our talents to serve, we will get where we need to be * 36:30 Diversify your perspective on talents; talents come in three varieties, but we only give respect to “doing” talents * Doing: arranging, organizing, developing, communicating, writing * Thinking: connecting, influencing, positivity, relating, empathy * Feeling: ideating, inputting information, learning, analyzing 41:30 What do you do when you don’t have a talent in a certain area? God expects us to develop all of these talents 42:15 Examples of talents that are easy to identify, and talents that are more difficult to notice * Easy: being a good athlete, gardening, singing, dancing, playing a musical instrument, drawing, painting, sculpting, cooking, baking, writing, public speaking, teaching, acting, composing songs, sewing, storytelling, repairing things, photography, bow hunting * Less easy to notice: having empathy, being a peacemaker, being positive and energetic, communicating effectively, being a good listener, having self-control/discipline, being able to make decisions, setting goals, getting tasks accomplished, giving service, inputting or retaining information, mentally organizing information, analyzing and sorting data, being friendly and kind to others, putting others at ease,

Mike Ramsey lives in Burley, Idaho, with his wife and four children (ages two to nine years). He is president of Nifty Marketing, an internet marketing company, an author and speaker, and currently serves in his stake young men presidency. He was raised in a single-parent home with a lesbian mother, and his experience coming to terms with his his mother’s sexuality has taught him tools that other leaders can use to better connect with and support the youth they lead. Highlights 8:00 Mike's mother’s struggles with the Church, dating his father, and acknowledging her same-gender attraction 11:30 How Mike finally connected with his father 14:30 His experience as a youth, learning about and dealing with his mother’s same-sex attraction 18:00 His mother’s struggles with religion and living in a spiritual but inactive home 21:00 Why he moved to his grandparents’ home, struggling with shame, and not knowing how to handle his mother’s sexuality 23:10 How he started going to church with his grandparents and friends 25:25 Wanting to belong: it’s hard to be different and no one was willing to talk about Mike’s experience growing up with a gay parent. Leaders need to be willing to talk with youth about what they are experiencing, and just listening. It’s not about the answer, but about the conversation. 29:15 Most youth want to learn how to live their lives and need leaders to open the door for conversation by sharing their own genuine life experiences. Youth need to hear the vulnerable experiences about how adults struggled as they were growing up. Shame is eliminated when we talk openly about our own lives. 34:45 The cultural experience in the Church where no one is willing to talk about mistakes or transgressions they have experienced, and how that creates shame. This is changing as the Church is embracing transparency, but the transparency of sharing difficult life experiences hasn’t yet been embraced by everyone. 38:05 Example of Alma the Younger and how approaching the Atonement that way facilitates trust between leaders and youth 39:10 Trusting the bishop: Kurt’s experience as a bishop with a young man who only went to see him because his mom told him to 40:30 Building trust as a bishop 42:00 How youth leaders can help youth who are afraid to open up to their bishop 43:40 Mike’s mission experience and creating connections of trust with his mission president, who was open and willing to love his missionaries. Experiencing sanctification through the Holy Ghost when he was finally able to connect to a leader who was willing to be vulnerable and accepting. 50:50 Finally coming to terms with his shame and struggles about his mom’s sexuality, her difficult choices, and finally accepting who she is 55:45 We are all broken in big and little ways, and fall short of the perfection of God. Asking questions, listening, and seeing people through the Savior’s eyes can help us be accepting of each other.