Food Safety Talk

Ben and Don start by catching up about technology. Ben is quite excited about Google fiber coming to Raleigh, NC, Don, already subscribed to Verizon fios says that the fiber is great. Ben then leads a discussion about his new obsession, the Wake Forest Community discussion board on Facebook. The page is a forum for pretty much anything from tooth abscesses, to snakes, to local business ratings. The guys delve into the community forum concept and explore the intersection with food safety (sale of goods, transportation from out of state). Don mentions that he has been volunteering with the innovation committee in Freehold borough who also is looking at a community forum. Ben introduces the concept of Lip Dubbing and Don provides his favorite, a NFL video about reading of lips incorrectly. The real food safety portion of the podcast starts by Don talking about Better Process Control School. Don talked about some feedback he was giving to a couple of small companies about aseptic processing, challenge studies and jacketed kettles, and expressed some frustration with FDA because sometimes their interpretation of science isn’t clear. The discussion goes into regulatory hurdles, retail food safety, variances and HACCP plans. Ben talked about an individual that is interested in food sustainability who is looking to divert food waste from restaurants to pantries, using reduced oxygen packaging for storage and transport. The guys talk about regulating food even that is given away (but not it all states) and the variance process. NC Senator Thom Tillis garnered headlines for suggesting that restaurants be allowed to opt out of handwashing regulations as long as they post a disclosure or advisory – or replacing one regulation with another. The podcast ends with a discussion of a possible norovirus outbreak at NC State.

This episode starts with a discussion of Ben’s taste in music, and they quickly move onto talking documentaries. Ben recently watched Jodorowsky’s Dune, on Don’s recommendation. This documentary has some ‘artful nudity’ that leads to a discussion of perverts on airplanes and the appropriateness of reading material such as Fifty Shades of Grey while crammed into an airplane seat. The conversation naturally transitioned into a discussion of microphone stands and coffee. Ben notes that owning a Nespresso machine has changed his life; he ranks it among his top 10 life changing things (including his wife and children). The guys then discuss other pop-culture topics including Deflate-Gate and TV shows The Affair, Portlandia (which had an episode satirizing raw milk), and Garfunkel and Oates. Note that Portlandia is required viewing before attending IAFP 2015 in Portland this summer Ben leads off the actual food safety talk by mentioning sprouts and the number of outbreaks associated with them. The guys then discuss experiments to validate sprout cooking processes including charred bean sprouts. Ben then brings up the idea of baking cookies in a car and a visit from Linda Harris (who now download and listens). From there the talk turns to pathogen reduction validations for baking processes spurred by Wegmans recall of baked fruit desserts last summer, presumably because they contained peaches recalled for Listeria. The FDA’s Reportable Food Registry, along with CDC whole genome sequencing of pathogens, is enabling more illnesses to be linked to products, as seen in Salmonella Braenderup linked to nut butter. Ben predicts more businesses will have to issue recalls because of validation issues, and the investigations that accompany these recalls will isolate pathogens from within facilities that can be linked to other illnesses which have occurred over months and years prior. The discussion then turns to the very bad blizzard that New Jersey never had. Don discusses the similarities between the models for weather forecasting and models in food safety. Both situations have consequences for over or under reacting; both present risk management and risk communication difficulties. A tweet from The New Yorker made Don mad: Bill Marler may be all that stands between you and Salmonella. This resulted in Don tweeting back to The New Yorker. Ben mentioned it was probably just Betteridge’s Law of Headlines. Bill Marler is probably not all that stands between you and Salmonella; as there are a few more people trying to do the right thing. The guys then go on to discuss how Marler and Caroline Smith DeWaal, a lawyer with the Center for Science in the Public Interest, have become controversial food safety personalities over the years. Don recently was quoted in an article about the safety of various cuts of meat (and Barfblogged here). Don and Ben were so happy Don was quoted correctly, they were able to ‘ding’ their podcast-bell; a virtual high-five. Pork has a reputation for being dangerous but decreases in incidences of Trichinella and Americans tendency to overcook pork have reduced the actual risk, so Ben wanted to discuss a recent MMWR Trichinellosis report. Don mentions ‘The Batz Report’ which determined the top 10 pathogen-food combinations with the greatest burden in public health. This led to a discussion of sample size, detection limits, consumption rates, and risk messaging, leading to the conclusion that cultural practices in food preparation adds complexity to the determination of risk.

At the start of this episode Don is very annoyed because he bought a microphone stand, carried it to various continents without using it, and now he cannot find it. In its absence he has resorted to using a hat. The podcast opens with discussion about making podcasts. A listener asked how episode titles are selected in response to the title of Food Safety Talk episode 68: “We found it in Wild Pig Feces”. The process for podcast title selection is to look for random, out of context phrases from the show, text about them 30-40 times to select one, and lastly make sure it isn’t too long. One of Ben’s students, Lily Yang, also expressed interest in podcasting. He advised she can learn a lot by studying other podcasts. Recommended podcasts are Merlin and Dan’s Back to Work podcast on 5by5 and the WTF podcast especially the episode with RuPaul. Another resource is The Podcast Method website. The focus of this episode was professionals making poor risk management decisions. A health inspector from the Nova Scotia Department of Agriculture tried to stop a mother from breastfeeding in her farmer’s market booth despite the fact that she had proper hand washing facilities. The department later apologized. Ben and Don applaud the well-reasoned response the mother, Tanessa Holt gave. Additional excitement brought to you by the 'Theater of Public Health’ includes a middle school in New Jersey was closed because a staff member had C. difficile . Ben provides an historic example of risk management vs. communication virucidal footbaths were installed at airports in response to foot and mouth disease outbreak with the understanding that they were not effective. The guys talk about how there is often a lack of data to inform risk, for example with the proposed use of hand sanitizer between handling money and then food. Or maybe the data does exist, but isn't at the forefront of public health recommendations (the removal of tomato stem scar). Ben and Don talk about gaps existing between regulations and practical ideas for implementation. Don found Rutgers dining hall did not have a vomit clean up plan and the Food Code is lacking specific best practices. One good resource for vomit clean up is here. The conversation turned to public perceptions of food risks. Food safety professionals are perhaps not proactive about correcting public misperceptions. A counter example is South Dakota soybean producers who aim to correct misperceptions people have about GMOs and pesticides through a new advertising campaign. Don talks about an interview question related to safest cuts of meat. Regarding food safety ranking Mike Batz has created a top ten list of food-pathogen combinations. For better or worse, the Mother Jones article is here. In recall news, Chipotle took a pork carnitas off of their menu because they suspend a pork supplier due to animal welfare concerns. Lastly, Don received an urgent voicemail from the department administrator to sign a very important document and stated that 'lack of planning on other peoples part does not does not constitute an emergency on my part.'

Don and Ben start the show by talking about the drastic weather in Raleigh, NC and Freehold, NJ. They quickly changed topics to beverage preferences, including Starbucks and eggnog. Ben notes he is not a fan of eggnog although his grandparents used to drink consistently. Ben also reminisces about other old-timey eating habits including pickled beets, and buttermilk. Don will stick with eggnog plus whiskey during the holiday season. Ben shared his excitement about a Sloan concert that he recently attended with his wife. Ben also mentioned a thoughtful gift that he received from his wife: a poet (Matthew) wrote a poem for Ben on the topic of barf and Ben was very thrilled. Don also shared his excitement as well as he recently celebrated his birthday, and Merlin gave him a shout out on his podcast. Twenty minutes in, food safety talk officially began and Ben commented on a blog post where the interviewed the research chief of ABC Research laboratories. She was interviewed about raw honey and recommended honey pasteurization to prevent infant botulism. Ben disagreed with her statement, and noted that pasteurization does not destroy the spores present in honey. Don supported Ben and added that pasteurization is even less effective in low water activity foods like peanut butter or honey. According to this fact sheet, honey is pasteurized to reduce the likelihood of fermentation and crystallization over time. Don turned the topic to Ebola in the US, and mentioned Peter Sandman’s post on The public health establishment and the quarantine debate. Sandman complained about how the US handled the Ebola issue. Ben agreed with some (not all) of the post and concluded that risk talk should always be frank. From Ebola the topic turned to Hepatitis E as an emerging foodborne disease. A UK article stated, 1 in 10 sausage carries the risk of Hepatitis E, which seems high to Ben and Don. Don thought that Hepatitis E in the UK might be a worker sanitation issue. Both guys were intrigued by the apparent low risk of Hepatitis E in the US. Peer reviewed research published in Epidemiology and Infection states that Hepatitis E is associated with unprocessed sausage, and 90% of British pigs have exposed to Hepatitis E and produce antibodies. Cooking suggestion including cooking for 20 min at 70 °C or better yet, using a thermometer. Don mentioned a recent contact by a local company asking about safe practices for cooked brown rice preparation. Although the company had a detailed and meticulous workflow, additional information (like product time and temperature) would be needed to insure control of Bacillus cereus, according to Ben. The show concluded with talk about the Month-Long Poop Cruise, the verdict in the Peanut Corporation of America case and the food safety mess in Pro Sports.

This show starts with Don and Ben talking about the number-six item on their list of things to discuss for the episode: Yosemite and how beautiful it is; Ben rates it at three thermometers, a rating system they invented. Ben’s favorite thermometer is the Comark PDT300, even though someone sent him a ThermoWorks Thermapen which is Don’s favorite. Ben’s hockey team has been using thermometers when the grill sausages, this is what Ben’s contribution to the grill-outs. Ben gets chirped for being the guy who brings the thermometer to the hockey grill. Ben is now supplying thermometers to other hockey guys. Don talks about his lunch date with a podcast celebrity from the 5by5 network. Don tells the whole story about flying business class from Brazil to Texas then while in Texas, buying comic books and having lunch with Dan Benjamin. Dan asked Don lots of food safety questions; they didn’t talk much about 5by5. After this, Don attended the NoroCORE Food Virology meeting with Ben (the guys talked in real life, not just over Skype). The conversation then turns to food safety culture and what that really means as it is in the literature. Ben talks about a conversation he had about food safety culture with a person trying to develop a presentation on food safety culture for farmers. Don shares an email from Doug about food safety concerns at [insert big company name] that shared a Dropbox video of text and images displaying poor food safety. The guys then talk about the difficulties of creating a food safety culture when no one thinks it’s important. Ben talks about the many things that must be in place before a food safety culture can begin to be established. Then conversation then transitions to how to talk about food safety risks. Ben suggests talking about risks frankly. The guys then discuss the uncertainties around risks and how to discuss them. Discussing how quantitative risk assessments are performed and applied, and the issue of uncertainty messages, also come up in conversation. Salmonella Hypetheticum then comes up in the conversation. Don then brings up a book that he has been reviewing about food waste. The same food waste topic has been featured on a television show that Don’s real life friend Randy Worobo was a guest on. The issue of food waste and risk is discussed, with a focus on lower income persons and how to manage the need to save money against food safety risk decisions. The use of fruits and vegetables that are past their optimum date to make infused vodka brings back memories of pruno-associated C. botulinum outbreaks. Ben appreciates Don for working the math around food safety questions and the time and effort it takes to accurately answer without just ‘no don’t do that thing’. Ben then brings up the issue of thawing a turkey on the counter the risks associated with that action. Doug Powell has a paper in the Canadian Journal of Dietetics Practice Research about the calculations around thawing a turkey at room temperature. Actually, it is ok to thaw a turkey at room temperature if you are within certain parameters. This topic follows along with the possible Food Safety Talk tag line: and it’s messy. Next, Ben wants to talk about communication, but Don talks about the decision to eat fresh produce in Brazil, and other’s decision not to eat the fresh produce while visiting. While at meetings Ben seems to focus on following the news and typing up Barfblog posts (some people are ok with that and will resist complaining; Ben does type rather loudly). When Ben gets really into what he is writing, he lets out really loud sighs others have noticed, but Ben hasn’t noticed his inappropriate sighing. Transitioning back to communication, Ben brings up a hepatitis A outbreak reported in Cumberland County Maine, but without a retail location identified. The State of Maine is taking some flack (could we call this chirping, see above) for their handling of this incident; the State of Maine tried to

In this episode Manan Sharma from USDA ARS fills in for Don who is away in Brazil. Manan grew up in Alabama and studied Microbiology as an undergraduate at the University of Florida. He received his M.S. and Ph.D. in Food Science from the University of Georgia where he focused on food safety microbiology. Manan and Ben talked about formative experiences in their careers including Manan’s high school internship at Research Genetics where he had great mentors who helped him appreciate molecular and microbiology. Research Genetics was later bought out by Invitrogen). Manan gave a shout out to his great mentors Bob Zahorchak, his first laboratory mentor, and Jim Hudson the president and CEO of Research Genetics. Manan also talked about his advisor at the University of Georgia, the great Dr. Larry Beuchat who encouraged him to take chances with his ideas and explore. Manan talked about his first project at USDA ARS: blowing up meat using hydrodynamic pressure processing (HDP) - different from hydrostatic pressure processing. HDP, where an explosion in a vessel of water is used to create a highly energetic wave is featured in an episode of MythBusters. Manan had to obtain a license from the ATF to use the explosives needed for this technology. Manan reported that while HDP was effective at blowing the roof off of his test facility it wasn't great at inactivating of food pathogens. Manan and Ben talked about food safety for leafy greens, particularly on the persistence of pathogens in manure and biological amendments. The guys talked about two a 2006 E. coli O157:H7/leafy green outbreaks, one connected to spinach and another linked to shredded lettuce leading to a research focus and the creation of the Center for Produce Safety, the Leafy Green Marketing Agreement. The conversation went to further impacts of big events including a 2012 Salmonella Outbreak linked to peanut butter manufactured by Sunland Farms in New Mexico which continues to impact growers. Manan talked about a paper, Bacterial Occurrence on Kitchen Hand Towels and extra-intestinal pathogenic E.coli (ExPEC). The guys wrap up the show with a new feature of 5 seconds, which included gems like: What is the riskiest food you eat? Nirvana, Pearl Jam or Soundgarden? Best project idea you wished you were part of? Most important sports moment?

The fellows start the podcast by catching up on their travels, and Don talks about Brazil and Ben about Canada. Don also talked about his new podcast workflow using an app that converts webpages to PDF files and sends it directly to Dropbox. Surprisingly, they immediately embark in a food safety conversation and Ben mentioned a recent C. perfringens outbreak in Maryland at a food safety conference where 266 people became ill presumably by eating Chicken Marsala. The actual food served was not sampled, however stool samples were positive for C. perfringens. This outbreak sparks a discussion of the work by food safety expert Frank Brian. In response to an outbreak at a school, Frank performed an observation study, where he had the cafeteria staff redo everything identifying the risk associated with that outbreak. The discussion turns to Denmark where three individuals died of Listeriosis after eating asparagus soup. Dr. Charles Haas tweeted the asparagus soup recipe has a dairy component and the soup may be served hot or cold which might be the risk associated with the outbreak. Once again, they talk about cutting boards in response to Don’s Facebook post. There has been previous discussion about how many cutting boards a kitchen should have. Don who himself owns 10 cutting boards, raises a better question to how risk is managed, or when to throw away a used cutting boards. Dr. Cliver, a former professor at UC Davis, has done published on plastic and wooden cutting boards. Ben recalled that Dr. Cliver compared raw milk and apple cider with bungee jumping and skydiving. While Don does not agree with this metaphor, he thinks that Dr. Cliver would have been a great podcast guest. Speaking of guests, the hosts updated their short list to include retired government scientists Jack Guzewich, and Carl Custer. The show-noter for this episode also gives a shout out to Dr. Freeze who was not just an awesome podcast guest, but also an inspiration and role model for female food safety scientists. Ben turns the talk to tech by mentioning an iTunes application that he uses to scan receipts and important notes, and Don counters with his PDF app of choice, which reminds him of his dislike of university reimbursement logistics. Don calms down to recommends music software that helps him focus. The show wraps, up with discussion of a blog post by Doug Powell: “Who are you? Scientist, Writer, Whatever”, and Don adds that to be a good scientist, one must be a good writer, since one must write to publish, and doing experiments without publishing them is not science. Then they talk about how social media can be useful in helping in food safety, citing a restaurant in Alaska that was closed after a Facebook post led to health department inspection.

The episode begins with Ben and Don talking about the fall weather and Ben’s podcasting from home (possibly sans pants). The discussion turns to travel and its potential impact on Don’s jury duty. Ben has never served on a jury, but has seen many movies about trials. Don shares that he has seen some movies about trials, notably Capote and To Kill a Mockingbird. Both guys are fans of the movie My Cousin Vinny, which is not a book. The pop culture talk turns to television, and Ben mentions The Americans (spelled with a c, not k, but the c does look like a hammer and sickle in the show logo). Don has been watching Intruders, but he has barely been able to discern what the show is actually about. Last Tango in Halifax is also good TV; with season two now available on Netflix. Ben wraps up the pop culture part of the show with a mention of a Farm Aid concert he attended with some other foodie-people and mentioned that Neil Young shared about his personal views on some farming issues at the concert. The conversation moved to politics and cable news. As a board member of the New Jersey Association for Food Protection, Don was part of a recent conference call regarding the organizing of a GMO foods discussion/debate with invited speakers, potentially including Robyn O’Brien. When Ben got his start in food safety, GMO foods were in the news and he mentioned a recent barfblog post on labeling of GMO foods and their unintended impacts on consumer choice. Ben talked about the summer reading program at NC State, and this years book Tomorrows Table, written by an organic farmer and a food biotechnologist. Ben recently participated in an IFT sponsored twitter chat on the safety of packed lunches. Ben noted the difficulty in answering complicated questions in only 140 characters over twitter and the stress of having answered so many questions in a short period of time. The discussion turned to an article about the temperatures of school lunches, and the importance of considering both time and temperature. Don mentioned a good FightBac webinar that covered cross contamination, and plugged his recent appearance on Academic Minute that covered some of Don’s hand washing experiments. Ben recently received a risk-type question during an interview, and he was keen to know what Don would answer (PhD students take note: Ben plans to ask this question at every qualifying exam he goes to!). The question was: What is the riskiest food-related thing that you do? Don provides two answers: 1) he sometimes doesn’t wash his hands for 20 s with soap; 2) sometimes he doesn’t take the temperature of meat on the grill and just believes it is ‘probably good enough’. Ben’s answer included eating fresh restaurant salsa with lots of cilantro and eating a lot of berries. Ben, Don and regular podcast guest Mike Batz are all trying to eat less and exercise more, and using technology to do it. Mike and Don are using Lose It; Ben is using My Net Diary and Runtastic. Don announced that he has podcast cheated on Ben by participating on another podcast, Better Know a Jackal, and the discussion moves to podcasting workflows in general. Don is now using an app to send webpage PDFs to Dropbox. The conversation then transitioned to some humorous turns-of-phrase that Doug and Ben like to drop into Barfblog articles. Ben was disappointed no one commented on a witty double entendre he included in a posting about finding vomit on an airplane. Ben has to repeat the line to Don a few times before laughter ensues.

The guys start the podcast by discussing old movies that Ben has never seen, like Play Misty for Me and the Good the Good, the Bad and the Ugly. Talk turned to chimps, Bonzo and Bubbles (not this Bubbles). They then talked about some more recent TV shows like Californication, The Americans, Dr. Who, Intruders, Comic Book men. And yes, the food safety experts are excited about New Girl season 3 on Netflix. The topic shifted to edible marijuana issues in Colorado related to Salmonella contamination and then Don reviewed a book that he recently read, “The minotaur takes a cigarette break” to which he awarded 5 thermometers. Don and Ben were then joined by special guests Laura Nelson and Dr. Jay Neal. Laura Nelson is Vice President of Business Development and Technical Services at Alchemy Systems, a food industry training solution provider and Jay Nelson is an Associate Professor at the University of Houston. The group had a discussion started on behavior-based food safety training including a survey that Alchemy commissioned, Global Food Training Survey Reveals New Emphasis on Worker Behavior. Laura also talked about an internal report looking at training staff on food safety behaviors including an observation/coaching follow-up. The group talked about some of the common issues that the food industry encounters - staff may have been trained but the actual practices aren’t always happening. Laura spoke about how to get at the reasons behind why practices don’t occur - and that food safety culture is tough for some industry folks to define. Jay talked about a training technique that includes breaking down specific processes into small pieces and how the literature is pointing to encouraging feedback and coaching along with positive reinforcement. Jay’s experiences are that managers are really important to culture and where their priorities are (sales, customer experience, food safety) will affect team performance. All four of them discussed ways to improve workers skills; Don pointed out that measuring behavior is very hard, and the group discussed some work that Jay had published in this area. Jay shared an amusing classroom social experiment where he teaches his students to empathize with non-english speakers. He assigned the students a recipe in a undecipherable font and only the manager has a clear recipe. They must try to cook together but they are not allowed to talk. In After Dark, Ben introduced Don to the Sponge Bath It suggests soaking kitchen sponge in a cleaning solution of citric acid and silver to reduce microbial growth. Nevertheless, Ben and Don promised to talk more on the topic in future podcasts.

Don bravely did this podcast without a microphone boom. Ben feels good despite his messy office. Ben mentions that he is currently obsessed with the Rolling Stones and likes the Shine a Light Film, Jumpin’ Jack Flash, (the song not so much the Whoopi Goldberg spy comedy film), and the song Salt of the Earth from the Stones album Beggars Banquet. They then discuss movies every kid needs to see before they turn thirteen such as Indiana Jones, Ghostbusters, E.T., and Diary of a Wimpy Kid and classic kids books including The Hardy Boys, Encyclopedia Brown, Three Investigators, Key to the Treasure, and A Wrinkle in Time. The guys then discuss their recovery after IAFP, as a follow-up to FST 66. As president of IAFP Don was very busy at the conference with meetings, breakfasts, committee responsibilities, and other assorted duties. He made the conference manageable by shirking his student poster responsibilities, not going to any talks, and skipping PDG meetings. He did however give a talk on based on a paper he has been working on with his CDC and EHS-Net (pronounced S-net) colleagues. The guys then drift to other podcasts, especially Alton Brown’s series and in particular one he did with William Shatner. If you like podcasts, food, Alton Brown, or William Shatner, this stupendous podcast is highly recommended for you. Thirty-five minutes in they decide that they should talk about food safety and get to Outbreak Flashback about a 2008 Salmonella Saintpaul outbreak that affected over 1400 nationally (as per Michelle Danyluk's suggestion. Initial CDC epidemiology analysis indicated the illnesses were associated with eating tomato dishes and FDA issued a health advisory on tomatoes. This NEJM article shows the case control studies that layout why the CDC initially thought the source was tomatoes. After tomatoes were removed from the market the illness continued and with additional data available the CDC later concluded that jalapeño and Serrano peppers were the likely source. Epidemiologic analysis was confounded by the fact that many illnesses were from restaurants where peppers were in dishes that contained multiple ingredients. Additionally the production and supply chain was very complex as is shown in the FDA’s traceback diagram. A key aspect of this outbreak is that it significantly harmed reputation and sales of the tomato industry, which estimates $400 million lost dollars as a result of the FDA’s erroneous health advisory. Talk turned to growers seeking indemnification or financial compensation for situations when the government agencies are incorrect about outbreaks. The guys then discuss a voluntary recall by Wawona Packing Co. on fresh peaches and stone fruit. A receiving company in Australia detected the presence of Listeria monocytogenes. This later led to a recall of baked goods in Wegman’s supermarket chain presumably because Wegman’s baking process is not validated. There are a surprisingly high number of comments posted to the Wegman’s article in Food Safety News which caused the guys to consider if the public health implications of this recall are more significant than first thought. For Listeria monocytogenes (LM) there are not a lot of outbreaks but rather sporadic cases; CDC estimates in 2013 there were 0.26 LM illness cases per 100,000 people in the US (for every case reported there are 2 cases not diagnosed). The guys then discuss food safety gaps common in fresh produce including poorly executed washing processes and traceability deficiencies. In after dark the guys discuss that Dean Richard Linton, Dean of the NCSU College of Ag, has selected the 2014 Dean’s ice cream which is dark chocolate, tart cherries, chocolate chunks and marshmallow swirl.

In this episode Don talks with John Bassett. The scene opens with a vivid description of a picturesque English village with pigeons pooping on the eaves and birds chirping in the background. John starts by telling the listeners a bit about his background. He is a veterinarian by training, having earned his degree in New Zealand. He spent seven years as a veterinary practitioner; a bit like that depicted in All Creatures Great and Small in Epsom (that’s in England). John returned to New Zealand and began a small animal practice but quickly transitioned to work for a government biosecurity laboratory in Wellington (that’s in New Zealand) where he solved problems during extended coffee breaks taken in trendy cafes. John got his start in risk assessment using the OIE approach. John’s next career move was to industry as a risk assessor with Unilever; this took him back to England (that’s in the United Kingdom). The guys got sidetracked and discussed the sole-crushing bureaucracy that can be found in big industry (not that there’s anything wrong with that). John’s latest career change finds him in a new mode as food safety consultant. The guys discussed the recent Chobani mold incident. From here the conversation jumped into tea. Iced tea with added sugar was discussed as a possible growth medium for generic E. coli (special concern was expressed for sun-brewed tea) and the potential for herbal (pronounced ‘erbal’ by some) tea as a source of bacteria and maybe pathogens. John talked about some of his current risk assessment work, and the difficulty of making risk management decisions for low-frequency events. John explains his recent interest in Gael Risk assessment techniques. This approach can be used for semi-quantitative risk assessment, and may have value in preventing problems like the recent horse-meat food scandal. The value of audits in science-based food safety was questioned and discussed, and Don and John disagreed about the value of semi-quantitative risk assessments. Bandwidth on John’s end starts to suffer (perhaps due to John’s kids arrival home from school) so the conversation is paused briefly, while John (the poopy-head) sorts it out. The show resumes with a discussion on whether HACCP is risk based or not. John notes that one key to “selling” a risk assessment might be based on saving money in the long run, perhaps from a reduced need for testing and auditing. A discussion of the Elliott Review takes place before the guys re-iterate the need for using computerized systems for effective traceback in the food supply chain; especially ones that do not need to be linked via paper documents. John mentions that he will not be at IAFP 2014 due to lack of a wealthy sponsor; but he does plan to attend the IAFP European Symposium in Cardiff in 2015. Don reveals his IAFP presidential party plans (Beer, Bourbon, and BBQ), while John contemplates pork ribs somewhere closer to home. John mentioned the use of the sear and shave technique to produce safer raw burgers in the UK. Don didn’t seem convinced, and will continue using his iGrill and tip sensitive digital thermometer, as suggested for use in previous Food Safety Talk episodes, “because everyone’s gotta have a hobby”. Both guys reminisced over outbreaks of Campylobacter jejuni from seared chicken livers that occurred in the UK and USA. In the After Dark portion, Don transitioned into talking about Doctor Who, and John explained he was late for the podcast meeting because of a meeting with McDonald’s own Bizhan Pourkomailian.

Ben and Don were on location in Indianapolis at the International Association for Food Protection annual meeting and the show kicks off with Don’s discussion of his script and playbook for the IAFP meeting. Don ate dinner at a place (Harry and Izzy's) that is not St. Elmo’s Fire and the guys decided that Rob Lowe looks the same as he did in 1986. Ben discussed his rule of three drinks, and Don does not subscribe to the same rule - which led to some tiredness. The guys were joined by Dr. Freeze who is not to be confused by Canada’s king of icees, Mr. Freeze. In discussing Ben’s new found obsession with the number 3 (like Jack White), Don shares 5ives, Merlin Mann’s list of fives (including #3 on the list of 5 guitarists who rock the three-note solo). Don’s continued use of his IAFP playbook as a prop leads to a dissuasion of Dungeons and Dragon’s, Canadianisms and the renaming of IAFP as science prom (where Don and Ben may take their bromance to the next level). Don alluded to the Florida Association for Food Protection’s requirement that Don dress up as a roach. A talk of accents let to a discussion of one of Ben’s current obsessions, FX’s Fargo with Martin Freeman. The group recapped Indianapolis happenings including Food Safety Talk guest Bill Marler's Ivan Parkin Lecture and the Oregonian’s Lynne Terry filing stories and tweeting from the meeting. The discussion went into some of the opportunities and challenges of having media actively attending sessions. The topic turned to non-traditional media, the 24 hour news cycle and clickbait lists including Buzzfeed. Don told a story about how a clip of him talking about food safety in China ended up on Al Jazeera. An age old discussion about the media (and others) getting science wrong led to Ben talking about an anonymous Twitter feed called IAFP no context. The discussion went into the War of 1812 (also known as the one that Canada won). In the After Dark the group talked about the Grateful Dead, handy folks and carpenters.

In this episode, Ben is absent, but Don is not alone. Mike Batz, Assistant Director of Food Safety Programs, Emerging Pathogen Institute at the University of Florida, is a guest in the show. He appeared not once, but twice on the podcast before. Don and Mike start by talking a little about their travels, then, they quickly move to a discussion on the Chobani Yogurt recall. The news article leaves Mike unsure whether Mucor circinelloides was pathogenic to both animals and humans. A brief digression about podcast listening speed reveals that Batz listens at 1.5 speed while Don is more civilized. Returning to yogurt, they discuss the original mBio article. Don concludes the study did not provide enough evidence to show M. circinelloides is truely pathogenic to humans. Don asks Mike about a psychology experiment done by Facebook where they manipulated users feeds. Mike was disappointed by Facebook’s methodology since the study never requested an informed consent from the users. They then rambled about again about their various and sundry international travels. Mike resided close to the Rijks Museum (that's in Amsterdam) for a while and Schaffner shared his experience in Finland (including reindeer tartare) and New Zealand (and beef tartare). Next, they talked about a document from the FAO marketed as providing a list of the top 10 foodborne parasites ). To continue, they discussed seasonal food safety tips. While Mike confessed to not always follow his own food safety recommendations, Don revealed he is reluctant to eat a cut cantaloupe by a stranger. Soon after, the discussion shifted to antibiotics in meat. Both agreed that the issue is quite complicated and there is not a straight forward answer. They concluded the show with a discussion on cross contamination including cutting boards, artisanal cheese and the 5 second rule. Don recommended plastic cutting board for meat and wood cutting board for any other food types.

In a special episode recorded back before Ben went on summer hiatus, the guys invite Doug Powell on for a chat. According to Wikipedia (which is never wrong), Dr. Douglas Powell was raised in Brantford, Ontario (that's in Canada). Doug describes himself as a former professor of food safety and the publisher of barfblog.com. He is passionate about food, has five daughters, and is an OK goaltender in pickup hockey. These days Doug is been thinking a lot about soul, and given the Venn diagram of their intersecting musical tastes this leads to a discussion of Mr. Soul and a place where even Richard Nixon has got soul. Any discussion of music and soul leads to a mention of the classic Soul Man, which Don knows from the Blues Brothers movie, and Doug knows from the original version by Sam and Dave. Doug is thinking about soul because of his monthly writing gig for the Texas A&M Center for food safety. The piece he was ruminating on during the call led to a post called "It's Gotta Have Soul" where his central thesis is that most people talking about food safety lack relevance; they lack soul, and fail to resonate. After the guys bid Doug good night, the discussion turns to managing graduate students, task tracking software like OmniFocus, distracting diversions like Flappy Bird, managing references using Sente or Mendeley and a brief look forward to this special events which are coming, or rather were coming, at the IAFP annual meeting.

Don and Ben revert back to their old Skype issues with the perceived blame being on Ben, but it was actually Don. Don announced that there will be help for people like Ben who aren’t so good at time and attention at IAFP 2014 the infamous Merlin Mann will be there. About 0.1% of IAFP annual meeting attendees will be excited to see him - including Ben and Don. Ben mentions his excitement that Professor Dr. Donald Schaffner, PhD was name checked on Back to Work Episode 173. The first mention of The Wire comes at 12 minutes which the guys then give a shout out to Baltimore resident Manan Sharma who mentioned that that’s his favorite part of the show. In follow-up from Episode 61, friend of the show MDD says that there are not rats in Alberta Ben and Don remark while there may not be any snakes in New Zealand and Ireland (although Ben thinks that Don is thinking of potatoes) there are rats in small pockets in Alberta While Alberta has had a rat eradication program since the 1950s, a colony of Norwegian rats, of Roanoke Island proportion, was found in Medicine Hat in 2012 and 2014 Ben tells Don that he wears big pockets, because of the rats issue and on a pilgrimage to Edmonton to see a statue of The Great One his pockets were not checked. The guys then talk about a question from IAFP’s Dina (not Dinah). Dina asked the guys to discuss their thoughts on a recent JFP paper about non-intact steak cooking using temperature, flipping/turning and different cooking methods. The practical, take-home message (as dictated using Dragon Dictate that flipping and covering with a lid (which allows cooking to occur both through conduction and convection heat) and using a thermometer for all cuts of meat helps reduce risk. Ben talked a bit about some future work that his group is doing looking at mechanically tenderized beef messaging, perception and behavior- including cubed steak (which is sometimes two pieces of meat slapped together and run through the cuber- although not by wikipedia). The discussion then went towards steak eating preferences as detailed by FiveThirtyEight Nate Silver’s cadre of numbers nerds who dissect a lot of pop culture and sports questions. The guys then both talked about message variability projects they have going on. Ben’s group is looking at cook book recipes (and how the messages and instructions in the culinary world often are not evidence-based). And Don’s group is looking at messaging on handwashing signs, something that his second favorite graduate student, Dane, is undertaking. In outbreak flashback the guys talked about 1854’s Broad St. Pump cholera outbreak. Using a map and analyzing cases of human disease, John Snow, largely recognized as one of the founders of epidemiology, created a blueprint for the next generation of disease hunters. Removing the handle on the pump was recognized by ending the outbreak except that modern epi-curve analysis suggests that the outbreak was already on the decline. Ben’s favorite part was what one of his undergraduate professors, Anthony Clarke talked about in class 15 years ago: the monks in a local monastery did not get sick because they didn’t drink the water, just home brewed beer. The guys then ended the show talking about an outbreak linked to food service hamburgers made from Wolverine Packing (or Wolverine’s Packing with adamantium slicers and grinders) beef. It’s unclear whether illnesses are linked to undercooked burgers or cross contamination - although anecdotally undercooked burgers have been reported. One of Ben’s graduate student’s Ellen Thomas has been working on a project related directly to this type of product, where secret shoppers have been speaking with servers at burger-serving family style restaurants throughout the U.S. The results of the project will be shared at IAFP in Indianapolis. In after dark the guys chuckle and guffaw about Ben’s Beatles references and Time and Attention and Tony Robbins who Ben thinks is in prison. But he’s