Call and Response with Krishna Das

Ep.09 ~ Surrender Surrender happens by grace. It’s not an act of personal will. That might be a hard thing to understand because we don’t, you know, grace is such a foreign concept to Westerners, but you know, Ramana Maharshi said, “If you ask the thief to be the policeman, there will be a lot of investigation, but no arrest will ever be made.”  That’s the thing about surrender. If you ask your ego to surrender, it’ll make a good job of looking like it’s trying to do that, all the time it’s getting bigger and stronger.” – Krishna Das Transcription: Q. Could you talk just a little bit about, in regards to your own personal experience then in regards to how it would apply to the rest of us, the process of letting go? KD. It might sound funny to point this out but whenever you’re, let’s say you’re sitting or chanting or doing some practice, or let’s say we’re chanting together, so you might feel something for a minute, it might come, it might go after something else. Where is this experience happening? I’ll answer. It’s happening in here. In each one of us. It’s not outside. It’s not somewhere else. It’s happening within each one of us. Having our own experience. Very different from the person next to you. And if you think about it, we go through our whole day, our whole life having our own experience. Each one of us. And that experience, what we experience, we, is and by our stuff, our, who we think we are, the stuff we like, the stuff we don’t like, the things that happen to us in life, the things that didn’t happen to us in life. Everything that makes us, everything that makes me, me, is what’s having these experiences, and that “me” is what spiritual practice begins to dissolve. So that gradually, the subjective bubble that we’re imprisoned in, and it is prison, the subjective buble that we’re imprisoned in begins to melt away. When Maharajji would say, “All one,” what he’s pointing to is that place when the bubble’s broken and there’s no, and you don’t think you’re that person anymore, you experience yourself in a different way. You don’t disappear, but you experience yourself in a much different way, you’re not limited or imprisoned or defined by your thoughts and emotions but you’re very much here, more here than you are when you’re thinking about shit all the time, Much more here. I mean, it’s inconceivable who much more it is, because it’s inconceivable by definition. You can’t conceive of it. It’s not a concept, it’s the experience of Being. And these Names that we sing, they’re calling us. We think we’re calling them out, but they’re actually pulling us into our Self. We’re being pulling pulled into ourself. Human beings experience being pulled within by your own Being as longing. Longing. That’s the killer. Longing is the killer. That’s what ruins your life. Wanting something we don’t, we think we don’t have. The longing for that, to be in that place, to be That. To feel That. That’s what drives us forward. That’s the saving grace, actually, is the longing. It’s a tough one. It’s very hard to just, to really surrender to That. Accept that. We still think we’re going to squeeze out a little bit of happiness. “I know, it’s just around the corner, I’ll grab it, you know, I can do it, yeah, this is ok, but I’ll get that.”  Good luck. Good luck. I mean that. Good luck. I hope you do. You’d be the first since time began. But you know, anything could happen. All right, any questions or anything? Anybody want to say anything? Talk about anything? I know I’m not like Lama here. I’m not very erudite, but I can bluff my way through it. Sir. Give him the mic. Q: Could you talk just a little bit about, in regards to your own personal experience then in regards to how it would apply to the rest of us, the process of letting go? KD: What does that mean? What does letting go mean? Or? Q: I think we all can understand it in some,

Ep.08 ~ Perceived Liberation  “I don’t know. You know, I’ve read a lot of stuff, I’ve been taking teachings from a lot of different types of schools of philosophy, of practice. They say that liberation is being able to live in your natural state, the natural state. On the Hindu side, it’s called sahaja samahdi, the easy natural state. In Tibetan Buddhism, it’s called Mahamudra or Zogchen or Rigpa, awareness, natural, natural state.  I don’t think about it that much anymore, you know? I want to be living a good life in a good way. I want to be happy. I want to at least be in the ring with my bullshit, you know? So I’m not knocked out of the ring by it. I want to be in there with it.  And to me, that’s a good place to be.” –  Krishna Das Transcription: Q:  So I think you already answered it, but I wanted to ask you what is it that you perceive as liberation? KD: That’s a good question for somebody.  I don’t know. You know, I’ve read a lot of stuff, I’ve been taking teachings from a lot of different types of schools of philosophy, of practice. They say that liberation is being able to live in your natural state, the natural state. On the Hindu side, it’s called sahaja samahdi, the easy natural state. In Tibetan Buddhism, it’s called Mahamudra or Zogchen or Rigpa, awareness, natural, natural state.  I don’t think about it that much anymore, you know? I want to be living a good life in a good way. I want to be happy. I want to at least be in the ring with my bullshit, you know? So I’m not knocked out of the ring by it. I want to be in there with it.  And to me, that’s a good place to be. I would simply say, I would, I want to be with Maharajji all the time. That would be my liberation, my state, and in order to do that, since He lives within me as my own true nature, my own true Self, in order to get there, I have to go through all my nonsense, my own stuff, to live in that place. We touch it at times, but then our own stuff, our minds, our stuff pull us out of it. So we have to keep coming back again. That’s the way I see it. Q: You’re there when at certain times, maybe not 24-7. KD: Well, we’re  always here, 24-7. We’re just not aware of it. Simple. We’re always here. Where else would we be? But our minds and our attachment to our thoughts and our emotions and our perceptions and our sensual sense information fascinate us. It’s like being a kid at a carnival, you know? “Wow, I want that ride.” So, the price to pay for that is you have to take the ride and then when it’s over, you’re back, screwed up again, so yeah, it’s coming and going all the time but really we’re always here. Where else could we possibly be? In the depths of despair, you’re still here, it just hurts like hell, you know? On the height of pleasure, you’re still here but you’re not paying attention, because we’re immersed, we’re lost in that stuff. Q: So you are liberated sometimes? KD: Well, there’s schools of thought that nothing ever happened, ever. Anywhere. Prove it to me. I think I’m me. That’s the problem. You know? As long as I think that, as long as I believe that, based on my daily experience, which includes those moments when I’m liberated from it, temporarily. Most of the time, it’s not where I live yet, you know? It’s not the ground I walk on. So, yeah, of course, we’re always here, but you can’t talk yourself into that. Suggestions for your practice: Devi Sadhana | Sri Ram Kirtan Sadhana Call and Response podcasts are made possible by the Kirtan Wallah Foundation Your support via direct donations go toward offerings such as this series, new teaching materials,  as well as the the compilation of all of KD’s work on the Path, for the purpose of sharing it with everyone in a variety of media. Kirtan Wallah Foundation is also be able to offer assistance to...

Ep.08 ~ Perceived Liberation  “I don’t know. You know, I’ve read a lot of stuff, I’ve been taking teachings from a lot of different types of schools of philosophy, of practice. They say that liberation is being able to live in your natural state, the natural state. On the Hindu side, it’s called sahaja samahdi, the easy natural state. In Tibetan Buddhism, it’s called Mahamudra or Zogchen or Rigpa, awareness, natural, natural state.  I don’t think about it that much anymore, you know? I want to be living a good life in a good way. I want to be happy. I want to at least be in the ring with my bullshit, you know? So I’m not knocked out of the ring by it. I want to be in there with it.  And to me, that’s a good place to be.” –  Krishna Das Transcription: Q:  So I think you already answered it, but I wanted to ask you what is it that you perceive as liberation? KD: That’s a good question for somebody.  I don’t know. You know, I’ve read a lot of stuff, I’ve been taking teachings from a lot of different types of schools of philosophy, of practice. They say that liberation is being able to live in your natural state, the natural state. On the Hindu side, it’s called sahaja samahdi, the easy natural state. In Tibetan Buddhism, it’s called Mahamudra or Zogchen or Rigpa, awareness, natural, natural state.  I don’t think about it that much anymore, you know? I want to be living a good life in a good way. I want to be happy. I want to at least be in the ring with my bullshit, you know? So I’m not knocked out of the ring by it. I want to be in there with it.  And to me, that’s a good place to be. I would simply say, I would, I want to be with Maharajji all the time. That would be my liberation, my state, and in order to do that, since He lives within me as my own true nature, my own true Self, in order to get there, I have to go through all my nonsense, my own stuff, to live in that place. We touch it at times, but then our own stuff, our minds, our stuff pull us out of it. So we have to keep coming back again. That’s the way I see it. Q: You’re there when at certain times, maybe not 24-7. KD: Well, we’re  always here, 24-7. We’re just not aware of it. Simple. We’re always here. Where else would we be? But our minds and our attachment to our thoughts and our emotions and our perceptions and our sensual sense information fascinate us. It’s like being a kid at a carnival, you know? “Wow, I want that ride.” So, the price to pay for that is you have to take the ride and then when it’s over, you’re back, screwed up again, so yeah, it’s coming and going all the time but really we’re always here. Where else could we possibly be? In the depths of despair, you’re still here, it just hurts like hell, you know? On the height of pleasure, you’re still here but you’re not paying attention, because we’re immersed, we’re lost in that stuff. Q: So you are liberated sometimes? KD: Well, there’s schools of thought that nothing ever happened, ever. Anywhere. Prove it to me. I think I’m me. That’s the problem. You know? As long as I think that, as long as I believe that, based on my daily experience, which includes those moments when I’m liberated from it, temporarily. Most of the time, it’s not where I live yet, you know? It’s not the ground I walk on. So, yeah, of course, we’re always here, but you can’t talk yourself into that. Suggestions for your practice: Devi Sadhana | Sri Ram Kirtan Sadhana Call and Response podcasts are made possible by the Kirtan Wallah Foundation Your support via direct donations go toward offerings such as this series, new teaching materials,  as well as the the compilation of all of KD’s work on the Path, for the purpose of sharing it with everyone in a variety of media. Kirtan Wallah Foundation is also be able to offer assistance to...

Ep.07 ~ Four Fruits Of Life “Hanuman not only gives liberation, frees us, but in the process of freeing us, He allows us to satisfy the desires that we need to have satisfied to move on.”– Krishna Das Transcription: Q:  In the practice that we’re doing, it’s said, “the Four Fruits of Life?” KD: Yeah, I let that out, didn’t I? The other day, when I was talking about Sri Gurucharana Saroja Raja. Q: What are the four fruits of life? KD: Artha, Kama, Dharma and Moksha. Wealth, or those kind of things. Kama which means your desires get fulfilled. Dharma, the dharma. Teachings. And Moksha, liberation. Those are the four fruits of life. The four things that we, the four fruits of life, of a good life is to have those four things. And Hanuman not only gives liberation, they say, this is a, I wish I had written, somewhere I had this Sanskrit of this, but Hanuman not only gives liberation, frees us, but in the process of freeing us, He allows us to satisfy the desires that we need to have satisfied to move on. Hunger for, you have to eat, right? It’s also a desire, to eat. But it’s also a need, so He gives us food. He creates, it’s like Maharajji, when He would bless us, He blessed us in so many ways, He changed our lives. For instance, my life is very, a 99% possibility that if my life had gone a certain way, I would have been dead by 23 or 24.  That’s the way it was going. But because I came in contact with Maharajji, everything changed. I was able to avoid certain situations that would have ended my life and in fact, my life was transformed so that, for instance, I always wanted to be a rock and roll star, right? I wanted to be in a band, a musician. If I had stayed in the band involved with those people that I was, I would be dead now. So, here’s my life. It has a similar form, but it’s for a whole different reason. I’m in a band. Hallelujah.  I’m in a band. I’m singing. I’m a big star. In a very small world. Who cares? But it’s not all about me. The whole motivation for doing this is to find myself. Not to manipulate other people into having a minute of pleasure that’s going to end in two seconds. It’s a totally different thing. It may even look the same, except the words are kind of weird. So, it’s all His blessing. He just did that. Boom. Next. It all changed. That’s the way, that’s Hanuman. That’s what He does. It’s not a renunciate path. You don’t have to sit at home, tie yourself up, take cold showers forty times a day. Don’t look at tv. Don’t eat anything but celery. It’s not about that. It’s about living fully and getting into life. Really. It’s about overcoming all those fears that we have and really getting out there and living. I told this before but one time, I was sitting with Him in this apartment building, in this town in Mumbai. We had trailed Him to Mumbai and captured Him. So we were sitting for many hours, all day, every day. We’d sit. And He’d just lie on the bed. He’d sit up, then He’d lie this way, then He’d lie this way. Then He’d sit up. Then lie this way. And I would just sit, you know, looking at Him. That was my job. I just couldn’t take my eyes off Him, right? Then all of a sudden He sat up, really tense and He looked at me, He said, “Courage is a really big thing.”  What’s going to happen? And so there was one Indian devotee there who said, “Oh, but Baba, God takes care of His devotees.” “Courage is a really big thing.” And then He laid back down and went to sleep. So, you know, you really need a lot of courage to push through the places where we’re very stuck. But we get the strength to do that from practice. That’s how it works, together, they work together. The more we practice letting go of our thoughts and coming back here, letting go, coming back, letting go, coming back, we’re loosening up the bondage that thoughts put us in. Because we believe everything we think. We wake up one day, we feel like shit, we believe it. You know?

Ep.07 ~ Four Fruits Of Life “Hanuman not only gives liberation, frees us, but in the process of freeing us, He allows us to satisfy the desires that we need to have satisfied to move on.”– Krishna Das Transcription: Q:  In the practice that we’re doing, it’s said, “the Four Fruits of Life?” KD: Yeah, I let that out, didn’t I? The other day, when I was talking about Sri Gurucharana Saroja Raja. Q: What are the four fruits of life? KD: Artha, Kama, Dharma and Moksha. Wealth, or those kind of things. Kama which means your desires get fulfilled. Dharma, the dharma. Teachings. And Moksha, liberation. Those are the four fruits of life. The four things that we, the four fruits of life, of a good life is to have those four things. And Hanuman not only gives liberation, they say, this is a, I wish I had written, somewhere I had this Sanskrit of this, but Hanuman not only gives liberation, frees us, but in the process of freeing us, He allows us to satisfy the desires that we need to have satisfied to move on. Hunger for, you have to eat, right? It’s also a desire, to eat. But it’s also a need, so He gives us food. He creates, it’s like Maharajji, when He would bless us, He blessed us in so many ways, He changed our lives. For instance, my life is very, a 99% possibility that if my life had gone a certain way, I would have been dead by 23 or 24.  That’s the way it was going. But because I came in contact with Maharajji, everything changed. I was able to avoid certain situations that would have ended my life and in fact, my life was transformed so that, for instance, I always wanted to be a rock and roll star, right? I wanted to be in a band, a musician. If I had stayed in the band involved with those people that I was, I would be dead now. So, here’s my life. It has a similar form, but it’s for a whole different reason. I’m in a band. Hallelujah.  I’m in a band. I’m singing. I’m a big star. In a very small world. Who cares? But it’s not all about me. The whole motivation for doing this is to find myself. Not to manipulate other people into having a minute of pleasure that’s going to end in two seconds. It’s a totally different thing. It may even look the same, except the words are kind of weird. So, it’s all His blessing. He just did that. Boom. Next. It all changed. That’s the way, that’s Hanuman. That’s what He does. It’s not a renunciate path. You don’t have to sit at home, tie yourself up, take cold showers forty times a day. Don’t look at tv. Don’t eat anything but celery. It’s not about that. It’s about living fully and getting into life. Really. It’s about overcoming all those fears that we have and really getting out there and living. I told this before but one time, I was sitting with Him in this apartment building, in this town in Mumbai. We had trailed Him to Mumbai and captured Him. So we were sitting for many hours, all day, every day. We’d sit. And He’d just lie on the bed. He’d sit up, then He’d lie this way, then He’d lie this way. Then He’d sit up. Then lie this way. And I would just sit, you know, looking at Him. That was my job. I just couldn’t take my eyes off Him, right? Then all of a sudden He sat up, really tense and He looked at me, He said, “Courage is a really big thing.”  What’s going to happen? And so there was one Indian devotee there who said, “Oh, but Baba, God takes care of His devotees.” “Courage is a really big thing.” And then He laid back down and went to sleep. So, you know, you really need a lot of courage to push through the places where we’re very stuck. But we get the strength to do that from practice. That’s how it works, together, they work together. The more we practice letting go of our thoughts and coming back here, letting go, coming back, letting go, coming back, we’re loosening up the bondage that thoughts put us in. Because we believe everything we think. We wake up one day, we feel like shit, we believe it. You know?

Ep.06 ~ The Atheist Mind  “The clouds come and go but the sky is always here, so, you can’t disbelieve the sky when you see everything going through it. You may not be able to see the sky, but you know it’s there.”– Krishna Das Transcription: Q: I heard someone say on a podcast once, “I’m a Hindu and a Jew, and 50 percent of the time, I’m an atheist.” And I thought, yeah, that’s me. And the longing and the looking for something and the even thinking I’m not getting it, those parts aren’t so bad, but the part that says, “No, there’s nothing here” and looks at all of this with skepticism, that’s really hard to take.  What do you do with the atheist part? KD: I’m an atheist. I don’t believe in anything I haven’t experienced myself. Period. What I have experienced, I believe, but an atheist is somebody who hasn’t experienced anything other than, you know, his own mind and whatever else the senses tell us, and never experienced anything beyond that. So why would they believe that? Blind faith is useless. The problem is that person also doesn’t have an understanding that his suffering is coming out of his own Being and until he changes that, suffering will never change. Atheists don’t want to suffer, either, you know? They just don’t think there’s any end to it. Q: Maybe you’re luckier than I am. There’s a part of me that can disbelieve what I have experienced. KD: Who’s saying that? That you can’t disbelieve. You can disbelieve your thoughts and your feelings, but you can’t disbelieve who just said that because that’s who’s here now, that will be here later, that was here before when you had that experience. You just, the clouds come and go but the sky is always here, so, you can’t disbelieve the sky when you see everything going through it. You may not be able to see the sky, but you know it’s there. So your Self, you know your self is there, but you don’t, you can’t see it. But that doesn’t mean, you know it’s there, but you can’t see it. If you want to see it, you have to do something. If you don’t, you don’t. But you still know you’re here. You’re always here. Whether you’re feeling like shit or you’re feeling good. Whether you’re driving a car or watching a movie. Whether you’re doing this or something else, you’re always here. That here-ness is the Self. It’s not being, it’s not the thinking about it. It’s what’s behind all that all the time. So it doesn’t matter what you think. You’re still here. Try not to be here. Q: I am. KD: You can’t. But it would be a good work, because eventually, if you really tried hard enough not to be here, you’d see how much, how here you are. And then all that other stuff would fall into place. But you believe your emotions. You believe your thoughts because you haven’t gone deeper than that. You haven’t anchored yourself. You let them take you away. We all do. We let all that stuff just pull us away, like an eagle. I saw this thing on Facebook, this eagle picked up this little kid, right? An eagle swoops down and takes this little baby and starts to take off with him, but a few feet off the ground, the baby fell. That’s like we are. We’re those little babies and our thoughts swoop down and take us away. They don’t drop us for a long time. So, but even that happens inside the sky. So, you have to do some practice. Practice just means sitting there and help trying to let those thoughts kind of dissolve as they go away. Watch them come. Watch them go. Who’s watching? It’s not the same one who’s thinking. The watching, if it was, if you were the thought, you know, there would never be any awareness of this Being, but there’s the awareness of the thought. You know, this, Ah, thinking, I’m thinking, ok. Come back to the chant. Come back to your breath. You know, we’re like, we’re in a raging river heading towards a waterfall, and we look at the bank of the river and we think that’s moving, so we just relax in the boat. Woosh, over the falls.

Ep.06 ~ The Atheist Mind  “The clouds come and go but the sky is always here, so, you can’t disbelieve the sky when you see everything going through it. You may not be able to see the sky, but you know it’s there.”– Krishna Das Transcription: Q: I heard someone say on a podcast once, “I’m a Hindu and a Jew, and 50 percent of the time, I’m an atheist.” And I thought, yeah, that’s me. And the longing and the looking for something and the even thinking I’m not getting it, those parts aren’t so bad, but the part that says, “No, there’s nothing here” and looks at all of this with skepticism, that’s really hard to take.  What do you do with the atheist part? KD: I’m an atheist. I don’t believe in anything I haven’t experienced myself. Period. What I have experienced, I believe, but an atheist is somebody who hasn’t experienced anything other than, you know, his own mind and whatever else the senses tell us, and never experienced anything beyond that. So why would they believe that? Blind faith is useless. The problem is that person also doesn’t have an understanding that his suffering is coming out of his own Being and until he changes that, suffering will never change. Atheists don’t want to suffer, either, you know? They just don’t think there’s any end to it. Q: Maybe you’re luckier than I am. There’s a part of me that can disbelieve what I have experienced. KD: Who’s saying that? That you can’t disbelieve. You can disbelieve your thoughts and your feelings, but you can’t disbelieve who just said that because that’s who’s here now, that will be here later, that was here before when you had that experience. You just, the clouds come and go but the sky is always here, so, you can’t disbelieve the sky when you see everything going through it. You may not be able to see the sky, but you know it’s there. So your Self, you know your self is there, but you don’t, you can’t see it. But that doesn’t mean, you know it’s there, but you can’t see it. If you want to see it, you have to do something. If you don’t, you don’t. But you still know you’re here. You’re always here. Whether you’re feeling like shit or you’re feeling good. Whether you’re driving a car or watching a movie. Whether you’re doing this or something else, you’re always here. That here-ness is the Self. It’s not being, it’s not the thinking about it. It’s what’s behind all that all the time. So it doesn’t matter what you think. You’re still here. Try not to be here. Q: I am. KD: You can’t. But it would be a good work, because eventually, if you really tried hard enough not to be here, you’d see how much, how here you are. And then all that other stuff would fall into place. But you believe your emotions. You believe your thoughts because you haven’t gone deeper than that. You haven’t anchored yourself. You let them take you away. We all do. We let all that stuff just pull us away, like an eagle. I saw this thing on Facebook, this eagle picked up this little kid, right? An eagle swoops down and takes this little baby and starts to take off with him, but a few feet off the ground, the baby fell. That’s like we are. We’re those little babies and our thoughts swoop down and take us away. They don’t drop us for a long time. So, but even that happens inside the sky. So, you have to do some practice. Practice just means sitting there and help trying to let those thoughts kind of dissolve as they go away. Watch them come. Watch them go. Who’s watching? It’s not the same one who’s thinking. The watching, if it was, if you were the thought, you know, there would never be any awareness of this Being, but there’s the awareness of the thought. You know, this, Ah, thinking, I’m thinking, ok. Come back to the chant. Come back to your breath. You know, we’re like, we’re in a raging river heading towards a waterfall, and we look at the bank of the river and we think that’s moving, so we just relax in the boat. Woosh, over the falls.

Ep.05~ Judging and Acting “You don’t have to judge. Judging means you’re seeing that person as evil. Or bad. And you’re not seeing that that person, just like you, is a result of many different things in that person’s life. Most people who abuse, have been abused. Right? Does that make them bad? It just makes them victims. Victims become victimizers. Not 100% but to a large degree. Most of what we’re taught about ourselves through our earlier life and our parents, we then absorb and we teach it to anybody around us. So, people who abuse are often abusing out of their own pain. That doesn’t excuse them. You wouldn’t let them hurt somebody if you were there. But you wouldn’t necessarily have to hate them to stop them. The not hating is the inner work. The preventing suffering on the outside is the outer result of that work”– Krishna Das Transcription: Q:  The woman behind me had asked essentially, about taking direct action versus looking inward and doing the spiritual practice. And I’ve run into that myself. KD: I don’t know if that’s what she asked exactly but, I don’t know, there is no “versus”, you know? There are not two different things. Q: Well, that is my question because I have begun to try to look inward and try to develop a spiritual practice, an interest thing has happened, which is, I have become a more passionate, a compassionate person. KD: You ever hear of a Freudian slip? Q: Probably that, too actually. KD: That’s good for you, too. No problem there. Money and sex, who can do without it? Some people think they can. Q: And so the harshness of the world outside us is there. KD: Sure. Q: And it seems to me that direct action is often required or I feel that need to take direct action and we do need to in this world. If somebody came in here, a cruise ship drunkard, we would have to physically remove them. KD: Maybe. Q: And so how do we balance looking inward, developing a spiritual practice with also going out in the world and making a difference in the world. That’ my question. KD: It’s really easy. You do the best, don’t take it away from him, I didn’t forget the word you used. “Challenge.” No, it’s really easy. You do the best you can. That’s it. Now think about that. Just think about it for a second. You do the best you can. What would you like to… how would you modify that statement? Q: I guess what I’m hearing, sometimes, is don’t take direct action. KD: You never heard it from me. Q: Ok, that’s where I got confused, because she was saying these other people that are doing horrible things. Then what I’m hearing is, who are we to judge? And sometimes we have to judge. KD: No. You don’t have to judge. Judging means you’re seeing that person as evil. Or bad. And you’re not seeing that that person, just like you, is a result of many different things in that person’s life. Most people who abuse, have been abused. Right? Does that make them bad? It just makes them victims. Victims become victimizers. Not 100% but to a large degree. Most of what we’re taught about ourselves through our earlier life and our parents, we then absorb and we teach it to anybody around us. So, people who abuse are often abusing out of their own pain. That doesn’t excuse them. You wouldn’t let them hurt somebody if you were there. But you wouldn’t necessarily have to hate them to stop them. The not hating is the inner work. The preventing suffering on the outside is the outer result of that work. If you hate that person, you’ve created a whole drama for yourself. Who knows what you’re going to do out of? Who knows? You might take that to excess. You might kill the person. And you know what they say in the East? They say, if you kill somebody, you give that person the right to kill you for a hundred lifetimes. Karma. You can’t. When you start talking about these things, you can either say, ok there’s no such thing as karma,

Ep.05~ Judging and Acting “You don’t have to judge. Judging means you’re seeing that person as evil. Or bad. And you’re not seeing that that person, just like you, is a result of many different things in that person’s life. Most people who abuse, have been abused. Right? Does that make them bad? It just makes them victims. Victims become victimizers. Not 100% but to a large degree. Most of what we’re taught about ourselves through our earlier life and our parents, we then absorb and we teach it to anybody around us. So, people who abuse are often abusing out of their own pain. That doesn’t excuse them. You wouldn’t let them hurt somebody if you were there. But you wouldn’t necessarily have to hate them to stop them. The not hating is the inner work. The preventing suffering on the outside is the outer result of that work”– Krishna Das Transcription: Q:  The woman behind me had asked essentially, about taking direct action versus looking inward and doing the spiritual practice. And I’ve run into that myself. KD: I don’t know if that’s what she asked exactly but, I don’t know, there is no “versus”, you know? There are not two different things. Q: Well, that is my question because I have begun to try to look inward and try to develop a spiritual practice, an interest thing has happened, which is, I have become a more passionate, a compassionate person. KD: You ever hear of a Freudian slip? Q: Probably that, too actually. KD: That’s good for you, too. No problem there. Money and sex, who can do without it? Some people think they can. Q: And so the harshness of the world outside us is there. KD: Sure. Q: And it seems to me that direct action is often required or I feel that need to take direct action and we do need to in this world. If somebody came in here, a cruise ship drunkard, we would have to physically remove them. KD: Maybe. Q: And so how do we balance looking inward, developing a spiritual practice with also going out in the world and making a difference in the world. That’ my question. KD: It’s really easy. You do the best, don’t take it away from him, I didn’t forget the word you used. “Challenge.” No, it’s really easy. You do the best you can. That’s it. Now think about that. Just think about it for a second. You do the best you can. What would you like to… how would you modify that statement? Q: I guess what I’m hearing, sometimes, is don’t take direct action. KD: You never heard it from me. Q: Ok, that’s where I got confused, because she was saying these other people that are doing horrible things. Then what I’m hearing is, who are we to judge? And sometimes we have to judge. KD: No. You don’t have to judge. Judging means you’re seeing that person as evil. Or bad. And you’re not seeing that that person, just like you, is a result of many different things in that person’s life. Most people who abuse, have been abused. Right? Does that make them bad? It just makes them victims. Victims become victimizers. Not 100% but to a large degree. Most of what we’re taught about ourselves through our earlier life and our parents, we then absorb and we teach it to anybody around us. So, people who abuse are often abusing out of their own pain. That doesn’t excuse them. You wouldn’t let them hurt somebody if you were there. But you wouldn’t necessarily have to hate them to stop them. The not hating is the inner work. The preventing suffering on the outside is the outer result of that work. If you hate that person, you’ve created a whole drama for yourself. Who knows what you’re going to do out of? Who knows? You might take that to excess. You might kill the person. And you know what they say in the East? They say, if you kill somebody, you give that person the right to kill you for a hundred lifetimes. Karma. You can’t. When you start talking about these things, you can either say, ok there’s no such thing as karma,

Ep.04 ~ Desire and Willfulness “Most of everything we do in life is designed to shine us up a little bit, so people will like us and look at us and appreciate us more and we get some attention, some affection. You know? But we don’t have to shine. We really don’t have to. So, if you’re noticing all the ways you’re trying to shine, that’s good. Otherwise how can you let go of that stuff if you don’t notice? Right? It’s not going to help you get happy. You’re just going to spend a lot of time shining yourself up. Then you fall apart.” – Krishna Das Transcription: Q: I’m wondering if you can speak to the differentiation between going after what you want, desire and like a willfulness. KD: You need will, you know? Will is what moves you. It directs your energy. Without will, you know, where does it go? What do you do? Whether it’s, you’re trying to direct your attention, that’s also your will. I remember, I’ve told this many times, but when I was in the jungle with this old Baba who was 163 at the time, he said to me one day, he looked at me and said, “Hm. You have to develop willpower.” And my first thought was, “Willpower? What do I need that for?” And then he kind of went like, like he saw my thought, so He did something and He showed me inside of myself, what He was seeing and it was pretty intense. I saw that I was not, I was putting chains around my ankles, you know? I was not going after the things I wanted in life, and I was all justifying it with, “well, I don’t need that. I don’t need this.”  You know, all this kind of stuff. But I really wanted things that I wasn’t going after.  Things I wanted. And I saw that I had this kind of funny thing like that there was spiritual life and worldly life and that you could live a spiritual life and you didn’t have to, you know. But I was in the world. There was only one life, mine, right? And if I wasn’t going to live it, who was going to live it? I was not going after the things I wanted. I wasn’t living fully. And that was a big moment for me. Willfulness, by that I mean, I take it to mean inappropriate selfish craving of something. But not, go ahead Q: Yeah perhaps, but do you think it’s possible to experience that kind of want and desire in a positive way and at the same time have that craving and wanting. So there’s two things happening. KD: Ok, let’s do this again. So, you have a desire for something and, which is called craving. Desire is craving. The issue is it going to hurt you or somebody else. That’s the only real issue I can see. If it’s a desire to drink a bottle of poison because it might taste good, I don’t think that’s good. Q: I think, can I elaborate? KD: Please. Q: So, like, if I want something in my life, if I have a goal or an aspiration for something that’s important, but then when I find that I’m pursuing it, that I get caught up in wanting it to turn out a certain way or I get caught up in what people think of me or how good I am in the face of someone else. KD: Well, first of all, one thing is why do you want it? Do you want people to think a certain way about you? You’re trying to get something so that people will appreciate and look at you a certain kind of way? If that’s your motivation, hm, that’s what’ll happen. But the other part of it is that you know, as far as the fruits of our actions, we have no control over that, all we can do is do what we do, and whatever comes to us, comes to us. We can’t guarantee success in anything and we can’t guarantee failure. Well, we can guarantee failure by not going after what we want. So it was my fear of failure that was keeping me from going after the things I wanted. And when I noticed that, I was able to overcome that to some degree. But yeah that’s good, being aware of all that stuff that happens to you on the way to getting something is very good. Is that a reason to not go after it anymore? Not necessarily. It’s like it’s doing good,

Ep.04 ~ Desire and Willfulness “Most of everything we do in life is designed to shine us up a little bit, so people will like us and look at us and appreciate us more and we get some attention, some affection. You know? But we don’t have to shine. We really don’t have to. So, if you’re noticing all the ways you’re trying to shine, that’s good. Otherwise how can you let go of that stuff if you don’t notice? Right? It’s not going to help you get happy. You’re just going to spend a lot of time shining yourself up. Then you fall apart.” – Krishna Das Transcription: Q: I’m wondering if you can speak to the differentiation between going after what you want, desire and like a willfulness. KD: You need will, you know? Will is what moves you. It directs your energy. Without will, you know, where does it go? What do you do? Whether it’s, you’re trying to direct your attention, that’s also your will. I remember, I’ve told this many times, but when I was in the jungle with this old Baba who was 163 at the time, he said to me one day, he looked at me and said, “Hm. You have to develop willpower.” And my first thought was, “Willpower? What do I need that for?” And then he kind of went like, like he saw my thought, so He did something and He showed me inside of myself, what He was seeing and it was pretty intense. I saw that I was not, I was putting chains around my ankles, you know? I was not going after the things I wanted in life, and I was all justifying it with, “well, I don’t need that. I don’t need this.”  You know, all this kind of stuff. But I really wanted things that I wasn’t going after.  Things I wanted. And I saw that I had this kind of funny thing like that there was spiritual life and worldly life and that you could live a spiritual life and you didn’t have to, you know. But I was in the world. There was only one life, mine, right? And if I wasn’t going to live it, who was going to live it? I was not going after the things I wanted. I wasn’t living fully. And that was a big moment for me. Willfulness, by that I mean, I take it to mean inappropriate selfish craving of something. But not, go ahead Q: Yeah perhaps, but do you think it’s possible to experience that kind of want and desire in a positive way and at the same time have that craving and wanting. So there’s two things happening. KD: Ok, let’s do this again. So, you have a desire for something and, which is called craving. Desire is craving. The issue is it going to hurt you or somebody else. That’s the only real issue I can see. If it’s a desire to drink a bottle of poison because it might taste good, I don’t think that’s good. Q: I think, can I elaborate? KD: Please. Q: So, like, if I want something in my life, if I have a goal or an aspiration for something that’s important, but then when I find that I’m pursuing it, that I get caught up in wanting it to turn out a certain way or I get caught up in what people think of me or how good I am in the face of someone else. KD: Well, first of all, one thing is why do you want it? Do you want people to think a certain way about you? You’re trying to get something so that people will appreciate and look at you a certain kind of way? If that’s your motivation, hm, that’s what’ll happen. But the other part of it is that you know, as far as the fruits of our actions, we have no control over that, all we can do is do what we do, and whatever comes to us, comes to us. We can’t guarantee success in anything and we can’t guarantee failure. Well, we can guarantee failure by not going after what we want. So it was my fear of failure that was keeping me from going after the things I wanted. And when I noticed that, I was able to overcome that to some degree. But yeah that’s good, being aware of all that stuff that happens to you on the way to getting something is very good. Is that a reason to not go after it anymore? Not necessarily. It’s like it’s doing good,

Ep.03 ~ Bearing Witness Unconditional love, it’s a word, it’s a phrase, it’s hard to connect with that. Unconditional love. Just think about the sun. It shines evenly all the time on everything. On the good and the bad, the beautiful and the ugly, the high, the low. It shines on those miserable people who kill people and murder people and treat people like shit and it shines on the people who care for people and do charity and help people every chance they get. The sun shines equally on everything and everyone. That’s what it is. That’s unconditional.”- Krishna Das An explanation of bearing witness to suffering without judgement. So, I said nothing was happening when we were sitting with Maharajji, that’s not exactly true. I don’t want to mislead you. So much nothing was happening, that it was like, the whole universe was happening. We were being loved in a way that we had never been loved before. Period. End of story. When I think about that, just imagine what it would be like to be loved in just the way you want to be loved, just the way you would imagine, “If I could only be loved that way, I would feel this way.” That’s what it is. That’s what it felt like at that time. That’s what real love is. It didn’t involve another person. Maharajji wasn’t a person although it appeared to us that there was this body sitting there throwing fruit at us, laughing. But that wasn’t exactly the point. Nothing, He didn’t seem to be doing anything except shining like the sun. Unconditional love, it’s a word, it’s a phrase, it’s hard to connect with that. Unconditional love. Just think about the sun. It shines evenly all the time on everything. On the good and the bad, the beautiful and the ugly, the high, the low. It shines on those miserable people who kill people and murder people and treat people like shit and it shines on the people who care for people and do charity and help people every chance they get. The sun shines equally on everything and everyone. That’s what it is. That’s unconditional. When I was in Auschwitz with Bernie Glassman, we got there, I think it was early November, and there was green fields and the trees were autumn, were just alive, blossoming colors, exploding with all the colors, all the leaves, right? It was so beautiful. And the first thing the polish woman said, who was our guide, she said, “You see all this green and these colors? There was nothing except mud and dirt because the prisoners ate everything they could eat. They ate the bark off the trees. The ate the grass. They ate the dead leaves. Anything they could put in their mouth, they ate.” Oh. And so then we were taken around the camp and were given, pointed out things, what happened here, what happened there. You know. And every day I would come to that camp and I would look up at the sun and I’d say, “How dare you shine on this place? How can you shine on this place?” Really, my heart was exploding in anger. “How can you shine on this place? What’s wrong with you?” he said. Well, we were there for a particular purpose. The reason Bernie takes people there is to bear witness to the suffering that happened there. To bear witness to the Beings and the Souls who suffered there and he feels their presence there and he feels by coming there to bear witness to their suffering, we dissolve the isolation and the loneliness that they must feel and in so doing, remove some of the suffering. It lightens the load of suffering by bearing witness. Bearing witness is an interesting concept. Witness. It’s not judging. The witness tells what they see. It’s the judge who gives the sentence. The witness simply witnesses. But I wasn’t able to do that. Every day I went there and I said, “How can you shine on this place?” And I would walk around and I was really, it was a heavy dark place until one day I looked up at the sun and I recognized, that’s what the sun does. It shines everywhere on everything. It shines on the inside and the outside.

Ep.03 ~ Bearing Witness Unconditional love, it’s a word, it’s a phrase, it’s hard to connect with that. Unconditional love. Just think about the sun. It shines evenly all the time on everything. On the good and the bad, the beautiful and the ugly, the high, the low. It shines on those miserable people who kill people and murder people and treat people like shit and it shines on the people who care for people and do charity and help people every chance they get. The sun shines equally on everything and everyone. That’s what it is. That’s unconditional.”- Krishna Das An explanation of bearing witness to suffering without judgement. So, I said nothing was happening when we were sitting with Maharajji, that’s not exactly true. I don’t want to mislead you. So much nothing was happening, that it was like, the whole universe was happening. We were being loved in a way that we had never been loved before. Period. End of story. When I think about that, just imagine what it would be like to be loved in just the way you want to be loved, just the way you would imagine, “If I could only be loved that way, I would feel this way.” That’s what it is. That’s what it felt like at that time. That’s what real love is. It didn’t involve another person. Maharajji wasn’t a person although it appeared to us that there was this body sitting there throwing fruit at us, laughing. But that wasn’t exactly the point. Nothing, He didn’t seem to be doing anything except shining like the sun. Unconditional love, it’s a word, it’s a phrase, it’s hard to connect with that. Unconditional love. Just think about the sun. It shines evenly all the time on everything. On the good and the bad, the beautiful and the ugly, the high, the low. It shines on those miserable people who kill people and murder people and treat people like shit and it shines on the people who care for people and do charity and help people every chance they get. The sun shines equally on everything and everyone. That’s what it is. That’s unconditional. When I was in Auschwitz with Bernie Glassman, we got there, I think it was early November, and there was green fields and the trees were autumn, were just alive, blossoming colors, exploding with all the colors, all the leaves, right? It was so beautiful. And the first thing the polish woman said, who was our guide, she said, “You see all this green and these colors? There was nothing except mud and dirt because the prisoners ate everything they could eat. They ate the bark off the trees. The ate the grass. They ate the dead leaves. Anything they could put in their mouth, they ate.” Oh. And so then we were taken around the camp and were given, pointed out things, what happened here, what happened there. You know. And every day I would come to that camp and I would look up at the sun and I’d say, “How dare you shine on this place? How can you shine on this place?” Really, my heart was exploding in anger. “How can you shine on this place? What’s wrong with you?” he said. Well, we were there for a particular purpose. The reason Bernie takes people there is to bear witness to the suffering that happened there. To bear witness to the Beings and the Souls who suffered there and he feels their presence there and he feels by coming there to bear witness to their suffering, we dissolve the isolation and the loneliness that they must feel and in so doing, remove some of the suffering. It lightens the load of suffering by bearing witness. Bearing witness is an interesting concept. Witness. It’s not judging. The witness tells what they see. It’s the judge who gives the sentence. The witness simply witnesses. But I wasn’t able to do that. Every day I went there and I said, “How can you shine on this place?” And I would walk around and I was really, it was a heavy dark place until one day I looked up at the sun and I recognized, that’s what the sun does. It shines everywhere on everything. It shines on the inside and the outside.

Ep.02 ~ How Does love Relate to Life  That’s the other thing that happens, you also start to accept all the parts of your life a lot more easily. All the shadows. You know, the shadows, if we don’t see them, they just keep pushing us around and they don’t go away by themselves. They must be looked at, they must be released, consciously released to some degree. So, when Maharajji sent me back to America after two and a half years, he said, “You go back to America. You have attachment there.” So, this is, this is what’s left after 50 years of dealing with attachment. Just, me and my main squeeze here. And my life, you know? But I think one of the things you’re asking, I’m not looking for that love in anybody anymore, in a person, in a human being – Krishna Das Transcription: Q:  So you mention about having a void and seeking to fill that void and so having had the experience with Maharajji, to piggyback on this gentleman’s question, how did that experience then translate back into, and this doesn’t have to be personal to you, per se, but in your experience, how does it all translate back into the romantic relationship, in your opinion. KD: Well, what about just any relationship? What about, how does it translate at all to life, you know? It changes everything on one hand but it didn’t eradicate the karmas that I had already, you know, that were still to work themselves out. They still were coming. You know, looking back, you know, at that time, it changed a lot. First of all, I knew that there really is something to find that is real. And all I had to do is clean my heart and calm my mind, right? So, I’m still waiting. I think tomorrow I’ll start meditating. Maybe the day after. I’m busy tomorrow. But on the other hand, on one hand, like I said, it changed everything because now there was a context for being alive, whereas before there wasn’t. I mean, I was hoping there was, but I didn’t really know that. But then after that, being there in India and those years and everything, you know, was different. My whole way of living in the world changed to some degree. But it didn’t obliterate a lot of the heavy darkness in my heart.  And that darkness manifested very fiercely over the years and it took me down a lot of places, you know, I would have never thought I would have gone. After being with Maharajji. Most people get fucked up before. But I was too scared to do that. I had to wait til afterwards to get screwed up. And I did. Royally. So, but then there’s, as bad as it gets, most of the time you know that, you have a sense that these are your karmas manifesting and the more you deal with them, the better it is. The more ways you find to deal with them and be present with it as much as you can, the easier it gets but that’s not easy.  Give him the mic, he wants to say more. Q: I almost feel as if this could be a conversation actually? KD: what else is it? Isn’t this my living room? Q: So be it. KD: Or your living room? Q: So it sounds like life only began at that point, per se? KD: no, it sounds like the lights went on for a minute and then they went off again. You know? But once they’ve gone on, you see what’s in the room, to some degree. And then it’s not so, it changes a lot. First of all, you know there’s a door over there. You just have to get to the door to get out. Before you didn’t know what was there. So, you’re bumping around trying to find a way out but you don’t even know if there is a way out, so you might give up very easily, which most people do. Q; So on that note, then, in terms of your relationship with life in general, just as opposed to just, a romantic side of things. KD: Ok, what do you mean by? You’ve said that twice. What do you mean by romantic? Q: Well, actually, just based on his question, so you know, in life one of the things that we seem to accomplish, let’s say for me,

Ep.02 ~ How Does love Relate to Life  That’s the other thing that happens, you also start to accept all the parts of your life a lot more easily. All the shadows. You know, the shadows, if we don’t see them, they just keep pushing us around and they don’t go away by themselves. They must be looked at, they must be released, consciously released to some degree. So, when Maharajji sent me back to America after two and a half years, he said, “You go back to America. You have attachment there.” So, this is, this is what’s left after 50 years of dealing with attachment. Just, me and my main squeeze here. And my life, you know? But I think one of the things you’re asking, I’m not looking for that love in anybody anymore, in a person, in a human being – Krishna Das Transcription: Q:  So you mention about having a void and seeking to fill that void and so having had the experience with Maharajji, to piggyback on this gentleman’s question, how did that experience then translate back into, and this doesn’t have to be personal to you, per se, but in your experience, how does it all translate back into the romantic relationship, in your opinion. KD: Well, what about just any relationship? What about, how does it translate at all to life, you know? It changes everything on one hand but it didn’t eradicate the karmas that I had already, you know, that were still to work themselves out. They still were coming. You know, looking back, you know, at that time, it changed a lot. First of all, I knew that there really is something to find that is real. And all I had to do is clean my heart and calm my mind, right? So, I’m still waiting. I think tomorrow I’ll start meditating. Maybe the day after. I’m busy tomorrow. But on the other hand, on one hand, like I said, it changed everything because now there was a context for being alive, whereas before there wasn’t. I mean, I was hoping there was, but I didn’t really know that. But then after that, being there in India and those years and everything, you know, was different. My whole way of living in the world changed to some degree. But it didn’t obliterate a lot of the heavy darkness in my heart.  And that darkness manifested very fiercely over the years and it took me down a lot of places, you know, I would have never thought I would have gone. After being with Maharajji. Most people get fucked up before. But I was too scared to do that. I had to wait til afterwards to get screwed up. And I did. Royally. So, but then there’s, as bad as it gets, most of the time you know that, you have a sense that these are your karmas manifesting and the more you deal with them, the better it is. The more ways you find to deal with them and be present with it as much as you can, the easier it gets but that’s not easy.  Give him the mic, he wants to say more. Q: I almost feel as if this could be a conversation actually? KD: what else is it? Isn’t this my living room? Q: So be it. KD: Or your living room? Q: So it sounds like life only began at that point, per se? KD: no, it sounds like the lights went on for a minute and then they went off again. You know? But once they’ve gone on, you see what’s in the room, to some degree. And then it’s not so, it changes a lot. First of all, you know there’s a door over there. You just have to get to the door to get out. Before you didn’t know what was there. So, you’re bumping around trying to find a way out but you don’t even know if there is a way out, so you might give up very easily, which most people do. Q; So on that note, then, in terms of your relationship with life in general, just as opposed to just, a romantic side of things. KD: Ok, what do you mean by? You’ve said that twice. What do you mean by romantic? Q: Well, actually, just based on his question, so you know, in life one of the things that we seem to accomplish, let’s say for me,