The Art of Product

Ben has been focusing on MacOS development and writing code. There’s so much he doesn’t know. But that’s ok. He strives to regularly learn things - just keep making progress for it to feel less intimidating. Derrick has the same mindset. It’s ok to not know everything. Start with the basics, and keep going. You’ll figure things out eventually. Today’s Topics Include: Ben is battling being part of the action or not and what tasks to handle; what is his role? Ben feels guilty about changing his mind, but doesn’t stick with non-optimal decisions Ben is discovering through calls and conversations that there is a market for Tuple Derrick has been focused on the new version of Elm and migrating to it; Elm is not going to break, and it has been thoroughly tested Level development continues with time spent on the Inbox; wants to get the MVP out Derrick plans to do journaling to share things and keep people involved with Level Make the Internet better and faster by not following stupid rules Links and resources: Derrick Reimer Website Derrick Reimer on Twitter Ben Orenstein Website Ben Orenstein on Twitter Level Derrick’s Manifesto Tuple Elm Basecamp Drip

Today’s guest, Justin Jackson, just launched a podcast platform called, Transistor.fm. Justin describes the time he spent working with co-founder Jon Buda to get it ready to go live. Launching involves a lot of energy and emotion with ups and downs. Whether working on your own or with someone else, Justin encourages you to take time away to work on something to focus on it and make significant progress. Today’s Topics Include: Reporting is key feature for podcast hosting applications; Transistor.fm offers an awesome analytics feature When catching up with competitors, have a comparable minimum set of features Some features don’t look good in screenshots; showcase a feature Lots of time was spent on the launch, which Justin hoped would create a ripple effect for sign ups, word of mouth, tweets, and other engagement People see something on Product Hunt, and they buy it; it’s an easy decision but not an intent-based audience - looking for entertainment and freebies Splash for Transistor.fm made it the #1 product and generated sign ups A podcast is an investment; Justin decided to use credit card sign up for Transistor.fm to build a brand and trust Calculating churn, setting expectations, and reaching goals; banking on slow, steady growth Starting work on Spots.fm, self-serve ads for indie creators; making it as easy to advertise on a podcast as it is advertising on Facebook Get a company to sponsor you and write off as marketing expense; way for podcasters to earn income from their show Talk, observe, and listen to “normals” to find that people buy things because of podcasts; don’t change people’s priorities to fit your ideals Links and resources: Derrick Reimer Website Derrick Reimer on Twitter Ben Orenstein Website Ben Orenstein on Twitter Level Derrick’s Manifesto Tuple Build Your SaaS Podcast MegaMaker Justin Jackson Newsletter The Importance of Trust with Your Audience with Justin Jackson Transistor.fm Laracon Tuple Native App and Level Inbox Workflows Product Hunt Rob Walling Tim Ferriss

Ben is back from a productive retreat with his Tuple co-founders. It was deep concentration work that didn’t feel like a chore, but a feeling of joy. They experienced a milestone - scrapped the electron-based version of their app to work on a native functional prototype. There’s a ton more to do, but it basically works. The pieces are coming together. Derrick understands the foundation required to pretty much get anything done with a new product. He is considering a future retreat, but wondering if the benefits are worth it to go off somewhere as a solo founder. Or, would it be more productive to be just sitting at his desk at home? The most critical item on his radar and one of the biggest unknowns he continues to battle is how the mechanics of Level’s Inbox will work. If it doesn’t function well, then the whole promise of the app breaks down. Today’s Topics Include: Ben is trying to get to dog food ability - being able to pair using the app while actually working on the app Ben is using Basecamp and GitHub Issues to manage tasks that are still left to do Ben is still experiencing a steady stream of tweets, sharing, and sign ups for Tuple Derrick also has a steady stream of tweets and is up to 4,500 handle reservations Derrick is evaluating what paradigm he is mirroring when it comes to notifications and actionable to do items It can be counterintuitive but ultimately helpful to think about something so technical that it sends you back into a loop of higher level conceptual thinking Derrick’s making progress and at a decision point; trust his instincts and build something to be used, build a prototype, or build static mock-ups? Take a risk and set a date! Links and resources: Derrick Reimer Website Derrick Reimer on Twitter Ben Orenstein Website Ben Orenstein on Twitter Level Derrick’s Manifesto Tuple Codetree Basecamp GitHub Issues Drip

Ben is out of town on a retreat with his Tuple co-founders, and Derrick is deep into building Level. So, this episode features Derrick as a recent guest on the Startups for the Rest of Us podcast. Rob Walling interviews Derrick about Level - what inspired the idea and how he went about trying to validate it. Today’s Topics Include: Level’s landing page and current query of number of members; scarcity play is effective Level is a Slack competitor, but much less interruptive and more asynchronous Derrick discovered Slack does not scale well as a team grows, interrupts people’s flow; Level is Derrick’s take on the solution to those issues Derrick hit the ground running with his manifesto and getting people signed up for Level His efforts on Twitter were effective because it’s a product marketed toward developers Dealing with feedback, ill-informed comments and conversations Derrick wanted to talk to too many, rather than too few people about value of creating a new product to address pain points Differentiation from Slack: Level niched down to developers and open sourced Derrick plans to offer free and on-prem versions of Level Whiteboarding to go over ideas and transform them into something tangible Derrick is working on mock-ups; challenging to lay out UI elements, such as the Inbox Risks are involved; when building something new, the challenge is to validate your most risky hypotheses - the ones that are most likely to fail Level is the third Saas startup that Derrick has worked on; first time he will not earn income or revenue while building Level, so had to make adjustments Links and resources: Derrick Reimer Website Derrick Reimer on Twitter Ben Orenstein Website Ben Orenstein on Twitter Level Derrick’s Manifesto Tuple Fostering a Culture of Creativity with Rob Walling Exploring the Open Source Business Model Startups for the Rest of Us: How Derrick Reimer is Validating His Ambitious Third Saas Application Drip Codetree MicroConf

Derrick continues to reinvent himself with his new product, Level, and sporting a, “I work for myself beard.” He took a vacation to canoe and camp instead of code. It’s always a refreshing experience for him to get away from work from time to time. Now, Derrick is back to writing code and organizing tasks in Levelland. Ben also went on vacation, but before doing so, he realized no sales for Tuple had come in that week. So, he made an effort to call prospective clients and was able to sell six annual licenses. Now, like Derrick, he is working on things that are hard to achieve. But if they can make them happen, then they will be really good. Today’s Topics Include: If feeling overwhelmed, write everything down, break into chunks, and organize them Find a visible way to make sure you are making progress and staying on track Ben wants to talk to other CEOs of small companies to find out what are they focused on and paying attention to because there is so much to do Don’t beat up yourself over mistakes, just keep making progress AoP podcast is like therapy and leaning on each other for support during this journey; staying sane during the new company/product process Prioritize Properly: Get sleep or you’re operating at a fraction at what you could be Break up your day and work schedule into 2-3 hour segments; if you need to get something done, spend less time doing it Teams contacted Ben about participating in the Tuple alpha; spots are still available, so contact him Company or founder retreats are a way to get creative, think outside the box, and bond over shared challenges and struggles Ben’s team, Sam Deane, including has been cranking away on its native app to create the initial set-up, layout, and architecture Ben tweeted about how to get up to speed on Mac OS development; considered corporate overlord’s job to create education and training, so it doesn’t get done Looking back on a year if AoP: Derrick overcame his fear of the microphone, and they’re keeping it real; humbled and happy that people find it useful Links and resources: Derrick Reimer Website Derrick Reimer on Twitter Ben Orenstein Website Ben Orenstein on Twitter Level Tuple Hill Charts on Basecamp Trello Drip Rob Walling Sketch Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Microconf

Derrick continues to code to make progress on things he will need to build at some point for his product, Level. Also, he spent a lot of time in Elm land for refactoring and additions. Will Elm code work for scaling necessary for Level? Derrick is still trying to decide. Ben’s team at Tuple has transitioned from C++ to Swift, a newer and friendlier language. Also, Tuple hired a consultant as a sanity check and to be pointed in the right direction for building a native app on Mac. Initially, the consultant will help step up and build with dependencies needed. Today’s Topics Include: Level App: There’s a lot of work to do and time is flying by; not sure when it’s going to be ready, but every day, make progress More than 800 people have signed up for Ben’s Code Quality Challenge; people engaged in it are getting value, doing useful things, and improving their apps Advantages of building your network up online; they share and inquire about info you post Types of tips that spread fast, including bash, shell, and git Ben plans to reach out to people to make podcast appearances to promote Tuple Ben stepped away from sales, but now plans to make money for the company his #1 priority; difference between self-funding and bootstrapping Being in a constant state of push-and-pull; when to do this/that and change directions If you’re interested in entrepreneurship, read Shoe Dog by Phil Knight; jumping through hoops and funding a company Check out Founder to CEO by Matt Mochary, who coaches tech startup CEOs in Silicon Valley; what do you need to know to grow? Friendly reminder if you’re going camping this summer, remember to take mosquito repellent with you! Links and resources: Derrick Reimer Website Derrick Reimer on Twitter Ben Orenstein Website Ben Orenstein on Twitter Level Tuple Elm Richard Feldman on YouTube Swift Derrick Reimer on Startups for the Rest of Us Derrick Reimer on Full Stack Radio Ben Orenstein’s Code Quality Challenge Ben Orenstein’s Shell Tricks Post Shoe Dog Founder to CEO

Derrick was hoping to finish mock-ups for communication flows inside Level to get feedback, but that turned out to be a lofty goal that he is still working on. The process of designing Level has generated more questions than answers and minute details that Derrick needs to address. This is the real work happens. Congrats to Ben, who finally crossed 10,000 followers on Twitter. He uses Twitter as a way to provide value, be useful, and build relationships. Also, he launched the Code Quality Challenge sign-ups and a private podcast to share information with people who are interested in Tuple. Today’s Topics Include: Interest in seed funding? Different ways to raise funding Being in complete control of your destiny and avoiding failure Doubling down to take investments; what’s it like to be in a business environment that received funding Rob Walling’s experience with funded companies; listen to a recap of 12 Lessons I learned Moving from Bootstrapped to Venture Backed Personalities and psychology of founders impact own vs. others’ money Flexibility: Choose to push hard and make something profitable or not Head lamp requirement to enjoy the great outdoors, and how being tall has its benefits Links and resources: Derrick Reimer Website Derrick Reimer on Twitter Ben Orenstein Website Ben Orenstein on Twitter Level Tuple Drip Briefs podcasting service Microconf Rob Walling

Despite being in the process of building new companies and products, Derrick and Ben understand the importance of sustainable pace - being able to unplug and get some rest to make smart decisions. So, Derrick just got back from vacation, and Ben plans to take some days off soon. It’s about the mental component of mastering your brain. Derrick is getting back into the swing of things and trying to finish the mock-ups for communication flows inside Level. Ben has been focusing on filling up Tuple’s alpha and booking substantial pre-pays. Also, Ben shipped his landing page and already has about 12,000 subscribers. Today’s Topics Include: Moving away from crud and crappy versions, and switching to a fully native app Reaching a certain bar to get the product in users’ hand; adjust and pivot as needed and be a suitable alternative Making a decision whether to build in Electron or not Is a desktop app necessary? Always-open option can lead to missed productivity KPI dashboard - what gets measured, gets managed Restart of code quality challenge: Sign up for next cohort in July Following challenge, pitch people on paid pair programming course Buying time to make a product really good, and training next generation of customers Business Idea: CEOs need dashboards 5-Minute Journal: I’m grateful for, what would make today great, and I am…; and 3 amazing things that happened today and how could I have made today even better Links and resources: Derrick Reimer Website Derrick Reimer on Twitter Ben Orenstein Website Ben Orenstein on Twitter Level Tuple Derrick Reimer on Full Stack Radio - Designing a Calmer Team Communication Platform Electron

Today’s episode features guest Justin Jackson, who is building a new podcasting startup called, Transistor.fm, and runs MegaMaker training and books for SaaS and indie software companies. He’s discovering that it’s a lot of work to build something. Derrick and Ben know how he feels. For Derrick, it’s been a fun week in the land of Level. He’s been working on his new landing page and landing new sign-ups for the pre-launch list. Ben has pre-sold $700 worth of Tuple accounts and raised $500 worth of verbal “Yeses.” Contact Ben if you want to be a part of Tuple. They share their ups and downs, fears and triumphs! Today’s Topics Include: Should I learn more programming? More design? Acquire skills to connect the two It’s easier to build something after building relationships; a personal approach makes you stand out Can connection with core audience become a scalable competitive advantage? Ways to tell your story and generate followers before you have product info available Get your product into the hands of potential users Propensity that you know all the answers, but bury your ego and ask for help Deciding how much to charge, pricing structure You can get people to sign up and get them to pay for it, but can you get them to use it and keep using it? Invest in something that offers a virtuous cycle of revenue back to your company Demonstrate value of existing content; making money and conversions from specific campaigns and activities Fears and feelings when people are not using a product Hire customer support people to reach out to customers and generate revenue Trend is automated software companies, but the most successful companies emphasize a human service component Pair programming always bubbles to the surface Links and resources: Derrick Reimer Website Derrick Reimer on Twitter Ben Orenstein Website Ben Orenstein on Twitter Justin Jackson Justin Jackson on Twitter Level Build Your Saas podcast Transistor.fm MicroConf Jason Fried Seth Godin RightMessage How We’ve Taken FOMO 20k to 80k by Justin Mares

He’s back! Ben returns from traveling to Hong Kong. He shared his rails knowledge by helping someone who is building a business and using a rails app. He made performance improvements and refactored items. Derrick is also doing some Vim tutoring. Learning something new does not take long or a lot of money, and gets easier. Of course, both Ben and Derrick continue to work on their new products, as well. Derrick is creating Level, an open source team communication and management tool. Ben is starting Tuple, a pair programming tool alternative for Screenhero. Today’s Topics Include: How to do file browser for projects in Vim: CtrlP; baked-in and plug-ins options for Vim Build and code, but talking to customers can impact your course and business Derrick is posting small, hot tips on Twitter that are nuggets of valuable knowledge Likes and retweets growing Derrick’s number of followers Ben needs to tweet more to market to developers for his new product - Tuple Derrick continues to work on Level; categorizing communication and how to present it Notion of urgency is big issue with Slack that Derrick needs to address with Level Brainstorming sometimes needs conversation, and sometimes long periods of silence Controlling distractions and creating checklists are part of Derrick’s daily routine Derrick is improving the copywriting and calls to action on Level’s landing page Ben plans to incentivize people via annual plan upsells Derrick is considering a referral tracking mechanism as an incentive Big transitions and uncertainty generate anxiety for Ben, but he now has strategies to deal with it Trying to create a thing that did not exist before is different than something that already exists; it is harder and more stressful, and you’ll feel pain and be unsure Ben’s role as external-facing sales and marketing vs. product development and coding Structuring to make yourself happy, but keeping staff happy, too; everyone should like what they are doing Links and resources: Derrick Reimer Website Derrick Reimer on Twitter Ben Orenstein Website Ben Orenstein on Twitter Vim CtrlP Your First vimrc Should be Nearly Empty Thoughtbot MicroConf Momentum Mathias Meyer Reboot Podcast - How You Walk Through the World with Seth Godin

Rob Walling, co-founder at Drip, MicroConf organizer, and host of the Startups For the Rest of Us podcast, continues to co-host with Derrick while Ben is in Hong Kong. Rob is becoming a believer in 3 to 6 hour work days; he is more productive and has more motivation to get things done. As for Derrick, he read an article titled, After 5 years and $3M, here’s everything we’ve learned from building Ghost, which relates to the business model he is following for his Level product. Ghost is using the open source core product and it’s bootstrapped, which can be difficult. in this episode, Derrick pulls out a few pieces of the article that are relevant to share. Today’s Topics Include: Piece 1: Competing on convenience with centralized platforms was a mistake; took too much time and made it a difficult experience for end users Level customers will either pay or go to the open source version; if they find that self-host vs. buy does not work out, there will be a transition path Piece 2: Building a distributed team is both easier and harder than imagined; the biggest challenges came from human problems, not business problems Drip experienced similar issues with a distributed team; Level will probably have a distributed team to find talent but not be able to compete with bigger companies Pros and cons of remote- vs. office-based teams, such as building camaraderie Piece 3: Open source development is more broken than ever; you are criticized for not doing something or meeting certain standards Derrick plans to set expectations up front and promote opportunities for integration; be transparent and provide value Brand is recognition within a group of people; brand association can be positive when they trust you, but negative if the brand treats them badly Drive word of mouth; it is one of the biggest attraction channels for companies Links and resources: Rob Walling on Twitter Startups for the Rest of Us Derrick Reimer Website Derrick Reimer on Twitter Ben Orenstein Website Ben Orenstein on Twitter MicroConf Drip After 5 years and $3M, here’s everything we’ve learned from building Ghost Build Your Saas Podcast SaaStr

Rob Walling joins Derrick once again as a guest co-host while Ben is traveling in Hong Kong. Rob was Derrick's co-founder at Drip, runs MicroConf, and hosts the Startups For the Rest of Us podcast. Derrick and Rob discuss the latest Level updates and strategize how best to approach previewing product mockups to potential customers. They discuss how the early phase of a startup is very fulfilling because you can be very creative, but also stressful because of risk and uncertainty. Rob gets Derrick's feedback about offering one-on-one founder consulting in his spare time. Links and resources: Rob Walling on Twitter Startups for the Rest of Us Derrick Reimer Website Derrick Reimer on Twitter MicroConf Ben Orenstein Website Ben Orenstein on Twitter Level Live #3: A Fireside Chat with Rob Walling Drip Twist Basecamp Soylent

Ben is away, so Derrick invited a special guest for this episode. Rob Walling was the co-founder of Drip and is the co-host of MicroConf. Rob recently removed Slack from his phone, and is waiting for Derrick’s Level product. Level is an open source team communication tool that Derrick hopes will replace Slack among software teams. Others are looking forward to Level, as well, and wondering how many clients Level is going to be available on: Mobile, desktop...As Derrick continues to work on Level, the two also reminisce about their days together at Drip. Today’s Topics Include: Derrick is planning to use Electron to build a desktop app for Level Some follow a pure approach and go native, but it can be more difficult than expected Bursting and psychological safety concepts allow people to express their ideas What if? Be creative as a team, encourage everyone to collaborate, and make the environment comfortable for magic to happen Individual vs. group brainstorming: Which works better? How do other companies do it? Derrick plans to show polished, not raw sketches of Level to make it reviewable Derrick has been building the product, writing code, nuking the database, and creating videos to show slices of Level being made Derrick used Stripe Atlas to form an LLC for Level Stripe is inspiring; believe that you can transition an industry, make things happen, and win the hearts and minds of developers Derrick and Rob discuss the pros/cons of fundstrapping vs. bootstrapping Rob shares feedback and reviews from listeners of his podcast Rob and Derrick share their thoughts on cryptocurrency investing If you’re enjoying the show please give us your ratings and reviews in iTunes. Links and resources: Rob Walling on Twitter Startups for the Rest of Us Derrick Reimer Website Derrick Reimer on Twitter MicroConf Ben Orenstein Website Ben Orenstein on Twitter Electron PhoneGap Twist WorkLife podcast Gusto Zenefits The Pixar Touch Lost and Founder by Rand Fishkin

Ben and Derrick are recovering from days of being in Las Vegas for MicroConf. They spent time reconnecting with old friends, and making new friends. Knowledge floats around, and you can soak it all in. MicroConf has a culture of extreme transparency, helpfulness, friendliness, and wealth of value. Talks at the conference generated actionable items for and awe from attendees. Derrick especially enjoyed copywriting and injecting humor sessions. Ben was impressed, too. His favorite talk was from Justin Mares on “How We’ve Taken FOMO 20 to 80k MRR in 18 Months,” where Mares talked about a difficult task and what worked and didn’t. Today’s Topics Include: Show up every day and try to make your business better Growth regrets and scaling challenges for Derrick with Drip; does slow and steady win the race? Growth and Derrick’s new product Level; he plans to focus in on software developers Don’t be afraid to go into large markets with your products and services to grow Ben met up with the “guy” whose research he is using for his new company and the problems he plans to tackle Ben plans to use WebRTC, unless or until an alternative appears Ben has been thinking about positioning, and how it will affect his UX, pricing, and other factors Ben settled on a name for his new business: Tuple (it was meant to be and nerdy enough for developers to get it) Derrick battles for domains and wins Level.app If you’re enjoying the show please give us your ratings and reviews in iTunes. Links and resources: Ben Orenstein Website Ben Orenstein on Twitter Derrick Reimer Website Derrick Reimer on Twitter MicroConf Drip WebRTC

Ben and Derrick are together again, at MicroConf and working on their new products and businesses. From making T-shirts to thinking about finding funds, things are continuing to move forward. Derrick is focusing on Level, an open source team communication and management tool. Ben is considering the name, Tuple, for his pair programming tool alternative for Screenhero. He is focusing on all things business-related, from equity to entity options. Today’s Topics Include: What’s equity? Ben determines how to break up partnership percentages for his company Each partner will have their moment in the sun, and contribute more or less at various times Forming an entity; should Ben’s business be an LLC, corporation, private company...? Domain scheme options when it comes to handles and extensions Ben’s next milestone is to do a small alpha, and charge people to use it Embedding iframes, custom domain options, and promotions How cagey to be about technology being used; the secret sauce and general public licenses Learning how to pitch a product and what resonates with people Tools can be improved, and education on how to use them needs to be provided Is Slack the problem, or the people who use it? On premise vs. Cloud options; the pros and cons If you’re enjoying the show please give us your ratings and reviews in iTunes. Links and resources: Ben Orenstein Website Ben Orenstein on Twitter Derrick Reimer Website Derrick Reimer on Twitter Angel Funds MicroConf WebRTC Andrew Culver