The Photo Report

Elan of RPL: tell us a little bit about yourself, your story, how you got started all that good stuff Sylvie Gil: It was a pure accident, how did that happen again. I was a fashion photographer in San Francisco and i shot a wedding for a friend and the wedding got published in a magazine in Canada and I don’t know if it exists still, I think it does Elan of RPL: What is the name of the magazine? Sylvie Gil: Brides something rather no it was called brides its Canadian magazine, but anyways after that the phone started ringing, I was like no am a fashion photographer just don’t know much about wedding  but I was also pregnant and if anybody can name me a fashion photographer and made a career out of it while they had children. I will give you the rest of the [1:16] because it simply doesn’t exist like when you a fashion photographer it’s really difficult you have a family that make you work 20 hours per day they can’t sense you are pregnancy they think you gonna hurt yourself, it’s a very difficult career to have as a parent so I thought maybe the weddings is the thing to do as a mum. Then I went and trained with a bunch of local photographers enough to 3 years of training and I let the word out and first year I shot fifteen weddings Elan of RPL: What year was that? A long time ago, over thirty years don’t wanna talk numbers. Elan of RPL: Am over thirty years Stop talking numbers that was a while ago I can’t remember Elan of RPL: So you mentioned briefly that you were a fashion photographer, how do you get started in photography like what sparked the passion that you wanted to be a photographer. That was another accident, I was actually in college for business I started marketing in business in college in Paris and came to America to travel around and I loved California I mean who doesn’t like California and I picked up my camera actually my… okay. Any parents here raise your hand. This is something you gonna remember, when I was fourteen my dad told me you should be a photographer and I was like are you crazy that am gonna be starving for the rest of my life that am gonna be an artist will just never work. He even had me visit a photography college in Paris and I was like there is no way I was gonna be a wedding photographer so guess what whatever you think your kids are gonna be its gonna turn out that way because the parents know better, they do. Elan of RPL: It’s interesting coz actually the parents are always trying to talk you out of a career in photography. Sylvie Gil: No Elan of RPL: Like get an education and then you can try this Sylvie Gil: No they are crazy in my family we are all artist so we are not, so I came here with a business degree and my father snuck a camera in my pockets and I took a tonne of photos while travelling across the USA and then I actually ended up at [3:14] with a black and white picture I took somewhere in US as most promising female photographer and I could barely speak English. It was really interesting so then I thought maybe I should pursue this photography thing and then I took a few classes am pretty much self-taught. I didn’t take a lot of classes I didn’t go to a lot of photography schools am pretty much self-taught Elan of RPL: So how did that kind of work your way into the fashion? Sylvie Gil: So I started knocking around in san Francisco on fashion studios because I love fashion and then this woman had me started sweeping floors and ordering lunches and was really using chilling and then I worked really hard at that position so I could climb up the ladders. When it comes to work and career I really believe in taking your time. Elan of RPL: Sure Sylvie Gil: I know now it’s a whole lots of concepts. So basically I went to auction in a lot of studios in san fransisco and started at the bottom like didn’t know much about anything. I really started sweeping floors and ordering lunches and then I became the fifth assistant and then the fourth assistant and then climb my way up to first assistant and we were doing a lot of catalog work and I got the opportunity to do this wedding then I quit fashion and went into weddings. I think 555 weddings is what I counted Elan of RPL: Are there any campaign you shot in fashion where they kind or stick out to you? Sylvie Gil: Yes, I did lots of catalog work   Elan of RPL: And you started getting clients based on that so that leads into the next question. What is the value of been featured in a magazine, how did that help your business grow? Sylvie Gil: It definitely did help my business right away and then after that one I got onto here comes the guide I think they are still around right. I think I did four covers right away with that. So it helped in the industry for the people in the industry back in the days, it was like oh who is that French girl like she is taking great pictures so they will refer me work. It helped with price a little bit also it was good I mean getting featured I think is a very important thing but it’s getting harder not as easy as it used to be but it’s possible Elan of RPL: What goes into submitting your work to different publications?   Sylvie Gil: Okay, are u actually - am gonna start backwards. I actually did a lot of research when I was on a play on my way here and I called a lot of editor friend and these are the numbers I came up with in US every year there are-Last year 2015 they were 2,173,000 weddings Elan of RPL: Wow Sylvie Gil: [6:26] Featured 42 weddings on print out of 2 million, online dating featured 55 Elan of RPL: So we still under like 99 right now Sylvie Gil: Yeah, they are not because they have all these regional magazines which are I think one per state, so it’s like they have like 50 regional magazines in one national one [6:47] featured 550 weddings which is pretty amazing so we have about 600 and I didn’t get a text from a brides but I would assume the brides only have a national magazine so it’s about 50 right there. So let’s say 800 tops out of 2 million weddings that happen every year. So there is a lot of photographers that come to me and go like oh my weddings are not getting accepted and am like it’s not that easy. I mean if you think about it there are so many choices these editors that it’s really hard for them to actually hire me, it’s really hard for them to pick through it. So when they pick through the weddings there is a couple different that they are generally looking for and one of the things I call it the WOW factor like the wedding has to be different if you open the magazine and you see six seven ten blush weddings and you submit another blush wedding guess what that’s not catching the eye of the editor and it simply not catching the eye of the editor coz they have been looking at all this wedding in blush all day long for 2 years already so when you go through the weddings or when I go through my weddings I really try to find the weddings that are just like interesting. If the couple has a cool story to tell its important too like it’s not just the details and the color that makes the difference it could be I don’t know a whole wedding that happened on white horses, it’s not in season anymore not in trend anymore it’s the whole story that’s interesting that’s what they looking for so ones you know that you have an interesting wedding then you go for the top magazine on their list. Which one is your dream magazine? and you submit to them and then you wait and then you get an answer and you submit to the other one and you wait for the answer and you trickle down until you finally get accepted but generally it’s not because your photography is bad its more about like what’s interesting about this wedding coz if it looks like any other it’s not gonna work another thing to remember always is that when they accept wedding magazine they will print it like six month to a year later so they also want it to be a little [9:00] like 2015 was all about wedding blush but think about what will 2016 gonna be like coz the bride in 2016 will open the magazine then she is gonna be bored with wedding blush you know the transformed 2015 so that’s all the factors that they really take into account and I think it’s wonderful to be able to say out of 700 weddings that were featured I got one of them. I think it’s a wonderful thing to put on your website it’s a wonderful thing to remind yourself of and when you do it, when it happens give a word to everyone in your family and your team coz it’s pretty cool Elan of RPL: How has the submission process changed in the last like 15 years? It’s the same. Yeah I there are company like two bright light can make it easy on you but I guess so it’s pretty much the same Elan of RPL: So anybody has any question so far? So okay we can move on. Okay we talked about how you decide to submit and what you look for in a submission. Are you submitting in styled shoots? Well some magazines do not ever really am yet to see one  feature style shoot because they wanna give the bride a prospect that its real so If they feature style shoot it’s a style shoot they all directed themselves you know they have a whole team and they put it together. The style shoot are good for girls one thing to remember is that there is another thing I heard from my business person is that a bride will pick the phone when she see your name seven times on average and this is why you wanna get featured anywhere and everywhere you can go in prints or go in blog if you go in blog you can go on other blogs and keep on going until as far as you can coz that’s what the bride is looking for she is looking for a photographer where she see her name a bunch of time and go like oh wow they must be really professional at this point Elan of RPL: So basically it’s submit submit submit until you get published somewhere, that’s the goal right Sylvie Gil: Yeah Elan of RPL: So blogs and magazine do you prefer and which one brings you more traffic of business? Sylvie Gil: It’s a very good question actually because when you have to think about when you are submitting to a magazine is that this wedding is gonna be under your bed in a lock for six month or a year with matter it can be a year and half and nobody can look at this images, nobody can use them, nobody can do anything with them so you kind of stuck. If that was the killer wedding that year that really wanna show everybody to grow your business you gotta think like can you wait a year and a half or do you want it out now, so if you trickling out a lot of wedding on a regular basis and you can wait a year and half that’s fine but most magazine is a minimum of six month then when you have that down they have the [12:03] for 2-3 months and then you can submit it to blogs [12:09] Are on specific contract when they pick your wedding you cant show it to anybody they are the only ones. All the other blogs will take your magazine even if it in [12:17] whatever but you have to wait a long time so I personally I feel like for getting traffic to your website, the blogs are better but for name recognition and brand recognition and brand association the magazines might be better. So you gotta pick through your batch of wedding and which one are you gonna like hang to [12:42] stores it’s really like they make you wait 2 years sometimes it’s been a long time you know it’s great to be there but you gotta have a lot patience so I mean I would like to have a wedding going up on some wedding blogs every two weeks so obviously you will have to shoot a lot to be able to do that you know something comes out every two weeks so then this way it’s a name recognition I was talking about the bride will see all and like oh that girl is coming back again I better call her now that’s kinda how it works   Elan of RPL: How do you establish and maintain the relationships with these different publications that you submit to and get published by? Sylvie Gil: By sending them a lot of words and a lot of sweet notes like thank you thank you thank you, you know what they use to pay us actually now they don’t pay any more but they really are helping you with your advertising your promotion your business your branding so I know it’s always like I wish I was getting money you get magazine all using free material all day long and it’s through. It’s kind of a bomb; I see some familiar faces here. It’s kind of a bomer that they are using your work and actually you just said okay next year am doing some hot models wedding and his like telling me what if you gonna feature this wedding you gonna be using my image my body to promote yourself and am like wait wait wait lets back out am not making any money on this so I could say the same things to you my killer photos is not in any of it but suppose we promoting you. You know on the day of your wedding you gotta be careful of clients like that too but yeah it’s good to have your work out there so asking for money from the magazine I wish they paid they should they should. Should we have a rebellion, a revolution? It will be fun. Elan of RPL: Question over here how do you attract the brides that you really connect with? Interviewee: Oh that’s where I think all about branding, it’s like your weak side should kind of tell who you are, it should be unique it should be different from anybody else and have your family member your friends go through your website you read me in there also maybe have people that you don’t know and ask them to go through your website you know there are lots of photographers out there and it’s a hard market to break through and I really think that been unique is important am gonna admit it for ten years I refuse to embrace my Frenchness and I was so like French inside but I was like keeping it as a secret Elan of RPL: Why Sylvie Gil: I was afraid of trump back then already. I don’t know I don’t know why but I really wasn’t and one day someone told me like just be French and am so French I have no idea then finally I let it out and it kinda helped with my business and my brand because finally I am myself. Elan of RPL: What is been French? Sylvie Gil: This food am right, if you follow me on instagram you gonna be so sick of my food post so right be yourself and try to create your own personality and then you gonna get a part that you really getting it I think. Elan of RPL: Do you do the submitting yourself? Sylvie Gil: My team does everything but that I have someone who does editing, production, post-production with albums and prints but the submission is me. Why because the photos that are gonna be out there are gonna be my favorite images so nobody can know where those are except they are in my eye or mind and when I don’t love an image am not gonna show it I wanna love it I look it like 2 or 3 times in a row and am like do I love it and there is a little tiny thing I don’t love about it and then boom it comes off you know the dropbox before I send it to the editor. So it’s just a personal thing I think to show your work out there and really if you have a hard time figuring out what your photography style is or what you love I can tell you after all these years of experience. Just listen to your heart it’s not really much like Trans or anything like that. I mean let me tell you the way I shoot now back in 2000 it was not it. Back in 2000 it was always black and white but now you show black and white pictures too bright she is like can you make it colored. It’s like it was all black and white back in the days so I embraced the colors because I love it and now the color is really the thing so just do what you really love to do and what speaks to you forget the rest of it I think Elan: What are the other mistakes that photographers makes that keep them from been published? Sylvie Gil: Doing this thing that has been already done. It really a problem it’s like editors like when I was having a talk with an editor she is like I see so many wedding that just looks like so many weddings have seen before. So when they go through like 30, 40, 50 weddings a day imagine that’s how many they go through. Imagine how boring to just see the same wedding over and over again so even if you do style shoot do something different. The one I did last year we hanged a dead chicken in a tree. Isn’t that what we did at the workshop last year? Yeah we did we hanged a dead chicken just to get people attention and yes it worked. Yeah there are lots of nasty years from [18:44] to vegetarians. Actually, I was partially joking but really wanna do something different you know whatever comes to your mind you know a factor in a negative way and in a positive way alwaysI think that’s how it works in an art gallery Elan: So rather than hanging dead chicken in windows what are things people should expect from the workshop you have coming up in April? Sylvie Gil: The workshop in April is gonna be amazing Elan: So tell us a little bit about it Sylvie Gil: The workshop in april, you know it’s in France I open a workshop a year in France because I wanna share my passion with you which is France food and photography not necessarily in that order depends on that day  but [19:13] which is be real while in country not [19:38] the other you know the other one in country and then we have chefs that come and cooks for us and we have this amazing styling team that comes from America and put this gorgeous shoot together we got a very big [19:51] that just got accepted a couple of days ago so they are shipping it which is wonderful and in terms of classes it’s me doing this and a whole lot bunch of various subject and there is a whole lot of speakers coming more showing our [20:07] is amazing at doing business. She can she will take your business to a whole new level. There is editors that are coming in and what else you are coming you don’t know that. Elan: Nobody told me Sylvie Gil: There is a whole bunch of different speakers, so we talk about business we talk about how to shoot and it’s not if you wanna bring a camera on my part for a couple of hours but you can do it we have a couples of girls last year with digital camera, I bring extra context and force them to shoot a role or two and guess what it always worked. After the workshop, they are converted and then we talk a lot about shooting film. So it’s really fun it’s like a family retreat we all stay [20:53] with the teams, the stars the models and the chefs, it’s like a family emergence for five days and we talk weddings all days long that’s all it is.   Sylvie Gil: So we talk about, this is one thing that is very important also is what kind of business do you want be like Brandon who use shoots 60 weddings you want to be like hussain who shoots 40 -50 weddings or you wanna be like me with just 25 weddings or who else [21:45] with just 12. It’s like what do you wanna do how much money do you wanna make in this industry. Is it a part time job or a full time job you know where are you stepping in your business right now is it like a steady thing or is it like bringing your name out there you I asked you at the beginning of the workshop you know i asked everybody what’s your main obstacle right now and let’s talk about how to get through the next level and at your level not everybody is the same so that’s really what we try to do.

Jose Villa is one of, or if not THEE, most known and sought after wedding photographer in the industry. Jose talks about his journey getting there and lessons he's learned along the way.   Elan Cohen: Let's start Jose. Take us take us all on your journey. How did your career start?   Jose Villa: Yeah, well I see some familiar faces so I'm sure you guys are going to probably like, I heard this before. I've been photographing weddings for about fifteen years or so, I'm formally trained, I went to Brooks Institute of photography. I grew up in Central, I guess coastal California and I grew up on a ranch and this is actually kind of fun being here because, like you know, it actually does feel like we're a little bit outside for a second. I love the outdoors. I normally or usually in most cases photographed outdoor weddings, vineyard weddings, private homes that kind of stuff. That's just where I'm most comfortable, that is where I grew up. So I, you know I want to, I just, I want to shoot in places that make me feel good. I'm not going to place myself in situations that I don't feel good in so I make it easy for myself and that's how I've been able to build my brand, is to just be you know photographing in areas that feel good to me, that I know I have full control in. Doesn't mean I don't photograph ballroom weddings, of course I do. But yeah I know for sure I mean I think, so that's a little bit about my background. I photograph roughly about thirty, thirty-five weddings a year. I used to shoot sixty weddings a year. I first started shooting weddings back when I think the average wedding photographer was maybe charging eighteen hundred dollars in my area. The first wedding I ever shot was four hundred dollars and I've always shot film, so I actually paid for the wedding, I paid for them. You know I see some nods over here, I know, but you know, you got to start somewhere and the beautiful thing today that we live in, you know of course this social media world and you need to take that to, you know, take that and run with it because honestly like for me Instagram is my portfolio. Would you guys raise your hand if you think that's true. Yeah everybody should be.   Elan Cohen: Remember how weird it was when you told us that you had just booked your first wedding from Instagram how like everybody was like whoa?   Jose Villa: I know that was like probably two and a half years ago maybe now. But about a year and a half ago a client called me and she said I had already booked her wedding and she said hey I'm really interested in hiring a floral designer, one of the best in California or anywhere, who do you recommend? And so she said don't send me their websites, send me their Instagram and I thought wow, like people aren't even going to people's vendors websites anymore. I mean maybe they are some are of course, but mostly they want to see Instagram and we all know that. I mean I see a lot of really young faces here and I think it's sort of for us, the younger well not, I'm getting older now but a lot of younger people here, you're using that platform and you should be. And what I always say to you is only show what you want in return. Do not show images that you don't absolutely love because if you do show those images you're going to get that in return. It's just going to happen. I'll tell you a really quick story, I have tons of stories but one of the funniest stories I think for me starting out was going through photography school we were trained to photograph everything from literally cars to buildings to children to, and you photograph everything. And the reason you do is because that's how you're going to fall in love with whatever it is that you're going to do for your career. And I remember at the time I used to go to [Sainta Barbara], I used to go to this really great Mexican restaurant and they had the best shrimp burritos. They put like you know zucchini in there and like mushrooms and like sour cream was amazing. So I remember going to this restaurant and thinking like the third time I went I thought, gosh you guys don't have any photos, like I want to see what I'm ordering and I said I will photograph your menu. And the owner said OK well how much do you charge? Well actually I had never actually made any money in photography, so I just threw a number out there and I said a hundred fifty dollars each, each photo, each set up and he said great no problem, sounds good, we have forty two for you. And I'm like oh my God, and I'm like working at Rite Aid Pharmacy making, you know twelve dollars an hour at the time and I’m going to school and I said great. And so of course we did it a week later and I lit the tacos so beautifully. It was like amazing. And I literally mastered the look of photographing tacos and burritos. And so then guess what? Their competitors were calling me and saying hey we saw these photos, we want you to photograph our menus and I thought awesome, more money you know. So that helped me get through school, I was literally going around photographing tacos around the area.   Elan Cohen: You had the market cornered?   Jose Villa: I had the market cornered. I know and that's how that's where my styling, you know my photography started. Was moving the being just right in the perfect spot. But you know honestly just by doing things like that, that really has helped me in obviously now photographing and styling gorgeous things and finding a certain client that now has, you know instead of a burrito, it's fifteen hundred dollars, you know, Jimmy Choos or Christian Louis Vuitton or whatever it is. So anyway so going back to sharing and showing what you want in return, I then started to create a website. The work that I had was student work and guess what? I had a lot of taco work, you know from and I'm not I'm not even joking I did. And so what I did is I showed that work because it was beautifully lit, not knowing that what was going to happen was guess what the next call that came in was another fucking restaurant, you know and I said no this is not what I want but that's the thing, is that I was showing images and attracting that and sometimes we don't think like that. I think sometimes we're thinking like this is beautifully lit, it's gorgeous, it's styled beautifully but maybe this is not the direction that I want to go in and so I was quickly took that down. I took all this stuff down off my website and again this is back in the day when there was no social media, no Facebook, no [it’s persona pretty], none of that and as soon as I started doing that people were now calling me just on what I wanted to do, which was mostly in the at the time, children photography and then some weddings and things like that. So you know I really, I really take this really serious like what you show, is what you're going to get in return and I know that, you know you've probably heard that but just really sit down and think about this. If you are on your Instagram later today, tonight when you have five seconds after you go breathe some normal air because this is not normal air, go down your Instagram and literally like delete images that you think, you know maybe six months ago you liked it but maybe you don't like it now. Do it and I know sometimes it might feel a little like, oh man you're losing a little part of your soul, but if you really truly feel like you love it, leave it, but if you don't get rid of it and even, even if it's literally you're deleting a hundred pictures, like I've done this. I go back and delete images all the time because I want my Instagram to all look like the top nine or the top twelve. I want them all to look really beautiful together as well you know. So not only are we photographers but we're also art directors I say that a lot and we're time management people, we’re business people. It's hard being a wedding photographer, being a photographer in general is not easy. So anyways it's a little bit of a ramble into I guess the beginnings.   Elan Cohen: Anybody got any question?   Jose Villa: Yeah and you know what like I want you guys to ask any questions throughout the whole process like this is just day one, I’m going to back here tomorrow and the next day and then I'll be a [fooje boose] as well. And I know some of you guys are going to my master class but this is why you come to these things. I’ve been coming to WPI for fifteen years in a row, like that's kind of nerdy right and I know, I know. And I was sitting down there and I was thinking like gosh like, I love that I got to meet the person next to me and that's how I found some second shooters and that's how, you know, I found friends that we’re now, we refer to each other. So this is what's so cool about coming to things like this.   Elan Cohen: So ask questions because if you don't, then what the hell are you doing here? You know, you're not just, believe me, this is not a pretty face. So yeah seriously if anybody, who here shoots fims? Just start that. Whoa that's awesome! OK good, cool I love that. I feel like Bill who here shoots film because they like the way Jose shoots and kind of picked it up because of that. See just as many names.   Jose Villa: I don't know but when I first started coming here, when was this maybe about ten years ago or so, well fifteen years ago when I started but ten years ago, I was, nobody here was shooting film, nobody. Maybe twelve years ago and I felt alone, I felt like I was literally wandering these halls and going: what the hell am I doing here? Like I just don't connect. Of course we love photography, we know that, but like everyone was afraid to shoot film because it was too expensive and because there was digital and digital was new. Well guess what I see a lot of young faces here. For you guys, for a lot of the younger photographers, film may be new to you because the first camera that you received was a digital camera that your parents gave you when you were fourteen years old or fifteen years old. And so that, everything really just does do a whole full circle, it always does and I've seen it and luckily for me I stay true all the way through. I've never shot digital for a wedding myself, I have had second shooter shoot digital. Do I shoot digital for commercial work? Yes I do. If you guys follow me on social media, I did the Mrs Box campaigns. Did you guys see that? That was shot on the contacts and I put the, it's an I.Q.2 fifty back. Anybody familiar with those digital box? They're really, really expensive but they're really, really quite beautiful and they're great for consistent light. We were shooting everything right by the window all day long, there was no direct light anywhere and we literally shot from eight o'clock in the morning to about five fifteen when the sun went down and guess what, the exposure was pretty much exactly the same the whole time. When I first did the campaign, this is campaign number five, when I did the first campaign I was super unsure about shooting it on film. And summer walk ins who is the creator of it, she said I want film like this is why I'm hiring you. And I said OK ,well ofcourse, oh I love film but what happened was I felt really insecure knowing that maybe my images were going to be so sharp because we're dealing with specular objects, we’re dealing with rings and diamonds and things like that. And so I decided that I would rent this back, I mean this back is like forty something thousand dollars and it's like a thousand dollars to rent. It's ridiculous! So I did it but what I did is because I was so unsure and I didn't feel really good about the whole thing, I shot film and then I, I would shoot like one whole set up on film and then I'd get the back, take the back off take forever and then shoot it with digital, just so that I can compare and so that I can see and if we ended up loving the film, then we would give him the film, but if we ended up loving the digital, we had given the digital. Guess what? We ended up loving the digital way better because it was a product, because it was specular, because it was a diamond and of course then we're dealing with their velvet boxes. So we've got two different types, two different contrasts or contrast here. You know, so we ended up doing campaign number one on both, I mean I probably spent like eighteen hundred dollars on film and processing that went to the garbage. But you know I think it was OK because sometimes for me I have to do it in order for me to, and I see some nods over here, to actually really pay attention and to really just kind of like fall my ass first or just learn that way on my own. And so now we're on campaign five, we're going to do campaign number six in October but it's super, super easy now and it's just, I think a lot of times too I want to mention is that, we overthink lighting a lot of times as photographers, keep it simple like all you really need to do, because people ask me all the time at weddings do you take like reflectors, do you shoot flash in the day? No, no, no. Keep it super simple, like literally all I need is open shade and a window and that's it. If you don't have that I totally understand. Maybe you work now with flash or more possibly with video light which one of the biggest questions that a lot of film photographers and I think you guys will also agree, is that it's really maybe a challenge to photograph at night. Right? With a film that's like one of the biggest questions I get is: well how do you shoot film at night? Well I shoot with the Kodak800. I push it possibly to eight hundred or even sixteen hundred and then I'm not pushing anything in the lab because I feel like there is room for error, there is human errors and there's you know of course there's humans processing things and if you can go, if you can you know go beyond a specific time then of course your images become contrast and they can get ruined in all these things. So I try not to push in the lab. What I mean is, I do it by my exposure when I'm photographing. I also will do video light. I like doing video light I think it's a beautiful, kind of a really classic especially black and white 3200 speed film. And a lot of times my client say well you know, we're looking for a digital photographer to do night stuff and I showed them images and I tell them there's no need but if you want, that's fine we can hire a second shooter and it's called of course, now it’s just going to cost a little bit more. So anyways, any questions you guys, just out the door here yes? Yes. So the question was how do I get my digital from like, let's say the Mrs. Box to look a little bit comparable to the color with, with film. Honestly to be honest with you, I don't do anything with the images. I use a grey card and I have to and I shoot it probably, like I check my color maybe every shot and like last week we did 52 shots in a day. So I checked it 52 times because I would much rather check it, do a test on it and then photograph that whole scene, so I don't have to do anything in the computer. Sometimes your underexposing a little bit because maybe the highlight is blowing out and we know that we may have to, you know back in the computer, just bring it back a little bit. And I think I shot 1400 images, I just actually sent them to a client. 1400 images and we probably maybe fixed like, I  don’t know 500 of them. A lot of times the color was going a little yellow and the reason is because in my studio where we were shooting, in the distance there's a little bit of a wall or there's not a bit a little bit of a wall, there's a big wall in the distance that's kind of an orangey tone and the sun in that specific time was bouncing that light into the office or the studio and it started to go a little yellow. But you know ofcourse you check your exposure, you check your grey card and that's, that's pretty much how I do. It's pretty simple actually. That camera is pretty amazing, I mean if you guys, if you have an opportunity to try it, it's quite beautiful. I don't think that I would photograph it at a wedding. At this time I'm not, I'm not ready. I also think that it's slow, you know bride and groom are walking down the aisle, so my favorite photos that I've ever taken are with my contacts, you know them walking down there's emotion and I'm trying to like keep up with them and that camera, I've tried it, just you know to test it out, phase one, you know sponsor me for a little bit and I click, click, click and the thing was too slow you know. So it is a little bit of a delay, so I probably wouldn't shoot for weddings at this moment yeah.   Elan Cohen: What are some of the most surprising differences between wedding photography and the commercial photographer you’ve talked about and the fact that you shoot a digitally?   Jose Villa: Yeah I think I like them both and I'm starting to tap in a lot more into commercial work and advertising work and stuff like that. I like the commercial work because I feel like I have, like my clients that come to me have, they basically want me to do whatever I want. You know they want me to be the art director and so it's like I just create a shoot and I just tell people what to do and or what I like and then they'll just do it. Same thing with the wedding and that's kind of what you want to do is like as a brand, that's where you want to be. You want your clients to come to you because you have a specific look and they want you, you want them to ask you like who do you recommend. Why? Because the wedding is going to be beautiful if you recommend your very talented, you know friends. So but the, main, but the biggest difference for me is that for weddings, I just, obviously there's real moments and real people and there's a lot more of like a gratification, like I just feel like people thank me and I'm creating a part of history for them and their family. And with like commercial work, it's kind of just a job you know, but like still it's, it's still gratifying, I still love it because of course I get to photograph how I want. But with a real wedding, I mean usually.   Elan Cohen: You see that connection.   Jose Villa: Yeah, you see you know your clients cry in front of you sometimes hopefully because your photos are good. You know or whatever or whatever it is but no it's just, it's just a human kind of bond, I think to like when you bond with people it’s just based on like creating images of like their family, like I just had somebody recently their, their, parent had passed away and this is crazy and the dad had a heart attack at the wedding on Father's Day. It was like the craziest thing and I, and he was an older guy and I took some amazing portraits of him in the day with him and his wife and he had beautiful face and like Asian you know just beautiful, beautiful wrinkles all that stuff. He was probably in his eighty's and anyways he had a heart attack and passed away a couple of weeks after but I felt so good that I had, you know gotten those images and I didn't know he had passed away except everything hit like just everything came to a halt during the toasts, literally during the toast. It was crazy for like two hours and then the groom who is a doctor and he went in the ambulance with them. It was like it's crazy but that's life, I mean, that's just what happens you know. But I just felt so good knowing that I had some amazing pictures and she told me, she said hey I need some enlargements because of my dad passing away and I of course I didn't know at the time, but in it felt good that she was just like happy that I had tons of pictures of them you know. So you know that's kind of like, right that just kind of says it all, really you know, but, but commercial work is really, is really, really fun.   Elan Cohen: What are, what are some of the commercial jobs you're working on now other than what you've gotten previously?   Jose Villa: Yeah, so I actually have a bunch of hotel, hotel jobs or hotel clients. Four seasons is one of my clients, Rosewood is also one of my clients and I'm working on other hotels. You know they want a wedding photographer to come and photograph their venue to be able to attract those clients, you know. So we're we've done a bunch a little, not necessarily look books but like just little I guess campaign shoots for them.   Elan Cohen: And would you shoot that in film or is that digital as well?   Jose Villa: That's all film. Anything that has to do with like an actual model or humans or whatever, that's all going to be   Elan Cohen: So you’re saying a product is?   Jose Villa: Yeah.   Elan Cohen: Digital and?   Jose Villa: Yeah, yeah. And I mean I think we did, we did some digital of their location at night like at sunset or something like that, we did a little bit of digital but for the most part it's going to be film especially when there's some skin tone, skin tone you know of course that needs to be, the thing with blowing out your negatives and for those of you that shoot film, what I mean is you're over exposing your film and I'm assuming you're like a Stoppard maybe too sometimes you have to be careful with the skin tone blowing out. You want the skin tone to still look really true and I think that's one of the biggest challenges that we have as film photographer is if we are going to be blowing it out and then using the combination of like a noritsu scanner, then you're probably going to be blowing your skin tone out a little bit. So people ask me all the time well, why do you use in the noritsu, why don’t you use the frontier. Are you guys familiar with those two machines? Yes I see some nos and yeses okay. If you nodded no, you need to do your research and as a film photographer you need to do some testing. You need to figure out what it is that you like not just because you saw, you know, my work or [Messina's work] or whomever's. You definitely need to just do your thing and test it all out. I attend and people ask me this all time: why, why do you use this all the time, the noritsu versus the frontier in certain cases. Well, it really depends, it depends on the lighting situation, if it's a really beautiful day in California, we have gorgeous sunset and we’re probably going to the frontier. If it's a really dark day and I'm photographing, I don't know, wherever even in California let's say, then I'm probably going noritsu and the reason is because the frontier tends to go darker in the shadows but the skin tone to me tends to be a lot more true. In on the noritsu the skin tone tends to blow out a tiny bit and you have to dial that back, but the shadows will definitely not bog up or get clogged like they would in the frontier. So it's just a different style. I know some of you do shoot Fuji and some you shoot Kodak. I honestly love Fuji, I think Fuji is just a better look for me, but I do love the Kodak. The Kodak800 is a, is one of my big films that I use, you know, maybe twilight or as the sun is going down. So that's, that's my formula and you all have to have your own formula. Whatever that formula is just, you know, it's all about testing and figuring it out on your own and sometimes we change, you know sometimes we shoot a 100% Fuji or you know 100% Kodak. But you really have to make sure that you make the right decisions because that is what's going to determine your brand moving forward as well, like it all has to be consistent and I think that's a really big word for me, is consistency, making sure that everything is consistent throughout. As a wedding photographer we know that sometimes we run up against you know, six different lighting situations or whatever it is you know, super bright light to then light dark church or maybe a ballroom or whatever it is, but your job as a film photographer and a digital photographer obviously, but your job and a little harder as a film photographer is to make all of that consistent without having to be stuck in front of a computer. Who here loves to be in front of a computer? Nobody, one boo.   Elan Cohen: Boo.   Jose Villa: Yeah I know, honestly like and when I ask that question it's always like one person and that's great that's, that's what they love and that's and that's good. Any way you have a? OK question. How do I make the transition into weddings and then into commercial? Honestly it's been just the natural organic progression, people yeah people have contacted me and because of that I have, I've actually not pursued it myself. I’ve talked to a couple of reps as well, I mean in the commercial world, in advertising world a lot of photographers have reps. I've talked to a few, but honestly like I feel like the clients that I want to attract in the commercial world are ones that don't want to work with reps, they don't want the drama, they don't want and I understand you know and it's, the reason you want to have a rep it’s almost kind of like having insurance I guess, almost like having it you know, like a lawyer I guess if you will. Because they're in charge of contracts, they're in charge of payments they're in charge of all that but they're going to take a big cut you know. And so if you're OK with that then that's fine, I have friends that are OK taking that. But the main thing for me is that I always like to have that client relationship, like summer I was with a Mrs Box, we became friends before she even created this box, so that's a little different but with like rosewood hotels, when they contacted me they said we have 18 properties, we have one property that we want to start off with you shooting and it's going to be in Italy and do you have a rep? And they said if you do can you have them send us a quote and I said No I don't have a rep, I will send you a quote myself and they loved that literally they picked up the phone and I was talking to Mark over at Rosewood hotels and we had a good conversation and he loved the fact that I was not just trying to you know, add all this money for digital retouching and all these things that a lot of people do and it's worth it, look believe me, it's worth it. I just didn't want to go there you know. So from that experience I actually decided that I would, I wouldn't want to do, I wouldn’t want to get a rep at this point, at this time but it, I think it was just kind of an organic thing and that's what I do in my life, I mean in my business. I tend to just let everything just kind of happen organically. From the very, very beginning I never really thought that I would be doing weddings. I actually was photographing kids first and the reason I was, was because I was really afraid to talk to adults, I’m being honest. I didn't know how to tell people to pose. I felt really in secure about how people were feeling or, or how they thought they saw themselves in the, you know or the how they felt and how the photos were going to translate. And people would tell me and I maybe they tell you this now is, I feel fat you know or this doesn't feel comfortable and so I just didn't want that and so I started with children because I could just run after them and they didn't care.   Elan Cohen: How did you get over that?   Jose Villa: I got over it because well one of my clients who had been a client of mine from a while ago, from school, I was photographing her kids and she said hey will you photograph my sister's wedding and I said no, no, no, no and I went to Brooks you know. Brooks is well unfortunately no longer is around but you know me thinking well and they, they teach you this at Brooks. Like you don't come to the school to be a wedding photographer, you come to be, you come to be like any Liebowitz here you know or David La Chapelle or all these amazing photographers and so I always thought no way I'm too good for weddings and so I said alright I'll do the job but like nobody can talk to me at the wedding, like I don't want anybody talking to me, I just want to be a fly on the wall and you know the sister was like I’ll ask my sister about whatever. And so she called me back thirty minutes later she said OK you're hired how much do you charge and I said oh well four hundred dollars and she said Great you're hired and so I started doing that and really just sort of doing, just like photographing of like a fly on the wall which is great being this photo journalist because back in the day that was a thing. Have you guys heard of Dennis Reggie, you think you know they were sort of the I would say the wedding gown or the founders of the wedding photo journalism movement back in the day and so the knot magazine was telling their brides hire photographers that are wedding photo journalist. So people were calling me because they saw the first weddings that I did and they said are you all for a wedding photo journalist and I would say yes I am even though I had no fucking idea what that meant. I mean I did but and so I just, I didn't know what I was doing but I did it and so what I started realizing though is that, that wasn't necessarily one hundred percent of what I or how I would want you know to be running a successful wedding business. I felt like I needed to direct and I needed to insert myself and just you know tell them what to do like walk that way but also relax and do this and do that. And as soon as I started doing that I started to really fall in love with my work. I started to really, I feel like take control and, and I was I was creating it if that makes sense. Yes of course you know as a wedding photographer I think a good wedding photographer is one that has a million different thing, hats that we put on, but, but the main two is really you know as the end result as being a good journalistic photographer, a fly on the wall but also a really good director but with you know not being so intrusive you know. So as soon as I started doing that I also noticed that my sales would go up because people started to look a lot better in their pictures, they didn't have that double chin. Even though you want to get that beautiful moment I still say look your chin up you know and then they would raise, and then literally and sometimes they'd freak out and go and then they ruin the moment you know. But just directing definitely helped my business for sure. I started loving it a lot more and it just, it just you know one thing sort of led to another yeah.   Elan Cohen: What would be like your top three tips for a wedding photographer that's trying to get into a shooting more commercial work?   Jose Villa: I would say start creating photo shoots not necessarily to be blogged, just for yourself. Back, I don't even know, maybe some of you have seen this these images but it's a beautiful couple, they're models in a river swinging and going up stairs, yeah okay that shoot. I did that shoot years ago because I wanted to finally kind of break into a little bit of the editorial photography and editorial photography doesn't pay, it just doesn't. But I wanted to be able to tell a story and at the time I was really hitting a wall with doing engagement sessions. Who here feels like there are so over engagement sessions right now? Because it's like it's very repetitive, can you say that it's very repetitive. Yeah exactly I have for you and at the time I was getting this one where I felt like it's so repetitive, just stand there lean into each other, hug, give her a kiss on the cheek, give her a kiss on the hand, you know it's just like I was saying same thing. And so I just felt like I needed to tell a story and at the time what I did is I, I hired models, I went and I photographed, do you guys know who [techn fitaj] is, a photographer yeah. I photographed his wedding back in 200, I think it was maybe a while ago and while I was driving past to his location, I remember to the right a really beautiful emerald green, beautiful, gorgeous river and I looked at the water and I'm like damn that looks toxic, I wonder if it's even safe to jump in there. But it was literally like a beautiful, like a god they call it was amazing, a little deeper than that. And I thought one day I'm going to come back and one day I'm going to do a photo shoot here and it's going to be a shoot for myself, not for a paid job, not for anything like that, I'm just going to do it for myself. Sure enough I showed texts photos it was on the cover of the first cover of Southern Weddings magazine and I, that's one of, I think there's a lot of times you think about, you know for me people ask me: what are like the top three things that maybe were business changing you know decisions you made or whatever and shooting [tax] wedding at a big discount, let's just say, it was good, it was really good for me. Anyways we got the wedding published, I started to get inquiries for the same area and the singer songwriter and national contact me to say, her name is Francesca, I'm getting married in this area, will you come to shoot my wedding and I said yeah of course and I thought yes, I'm going to shoot the wedding, I want to get paid what I'm worth that I didn't give any discounts and I'm going to do that shoot by that toxic river. And so.   Elan Cohen: Does the toxic river have a name?   Jose Villa: Maybe it does I should as that, I don't know. It's beautiful though and so I booked the wedding, I hired an hour and not hired necessarily, but we, we connected with joy Proctor you guys know who joy Proctor is, you know worked with [once white]? OK. So Joy and I met years ago when we did [Tax] wedding and so I contacted her and said hey I have this idea to do this shoot, I'm hitting a wall with engagement sessions excuse me and I had this idea like I just want a beautiful model, gorgeous you know swimsuit, I have an idea of maybe black I'm not sure. Black, black clothing all that stuff and so we did it and then I showed it on my blog, blogs of course like there were a lot bigger, I don't get as many hits anymore on my blog than I do like let's say on Instagram or let's say but we showed it and the crazy thing is that the next engagement sessions, guess what my clients were saying: I want that, I want that. And so literally like the next 6 shoots we're pretty much doing that, like I had this bride that said I have a ranch in my area and where we live and I have a lake and I want to do in a beautiful dock and I want to do the same thing in this lake and I said perfect. It became a thing where it was like, we were doing the same thing now, like doing lake shoots and I’m like OK stop. So I think by just doing things like that and setting shoots up for yourself, that you just feel like are inspiring to you that has led into doing commercial work, that has led into doing editorial work because.

2016 was a fun year, we like all that, is about updating new brands and so, we launched that and then also, kindof took the time to take some personal work and really kindof organize that into just a place that would all the, to be able to sell prints of those in a way that was easy and organized. And showcased it, that was even like more work for us. I think I've talked to several of you, that everyone said oh somebody wanna buy one (1) of our prints, and you know. Okay now, how do I? What size do I do it? How expensive is that? How do I get it to you? And it's actually more work to actually fulfill that order, that when it's a final print like that, if you don't go through all the process. So we finally took the time and did that.   Q: We learned that together, but it's a lot harder than just starting the print)   A: Yeah, yeah. This is a very nice man here. We put him through a lot in 2016.   Q: No. You guys are fine, you taught us some stuffs, so that's great. What would be something that if you could look back to when you started shooting, a bit of advice that you wish someone had given you.      Q: So, part of what we've been talking about this year, so much is really the business behind what we're doing, and specifically you know we say fine art photography maybe, maybe six years ago, everyone would say no, I'm a photo journalistic photographer, and then it was fine art photographer, even now that may have been over used. Kindof like you know, organic, well then it was on every single food package, well then it doesn't really mean anything anymore. So, I think really just getting back to the business, and really taking the time to come up with the vision for your business, and more specifically for your life. Because if you just start doing and your goal is to go to the next wedding, to take the prettiest next picture, and you know to get on that magazine, and get on that blog, and you know, becomes the rat race, and you're kind of in it and then maybe years go by and you go, is this exactly where I wanted to be? Am I working towards the objective, towards the vision that I want for my life? And so really just being more strategic about that, and thinking about what you want your life to look like, and I mean really like, where is that, what are you doing everyday? Are you home on the weekends? Are you on a plane three days a week? What does that life look like? Because maybe you're kindof running in the wrong direction and wasting a lot of energy to chase after something that you don't even really want at the end of the day. And I think it is easy to get caught up in kindof what other people are doing, and what they have, and kind of go oh that looks amazing, I want that. But when you really sit to think about it, and go oh well that means we have to pack a bag on Thursdays and say goodbye to their kids. And they come home on Monday, and you know they're not there for that. And they miss Johnny’s soccer game, or whatever that may be, is that really you know necessarily what you want? So just kindof figure those things out and making sure it, there's a trajectory and a strategy to get there.   Q: So you've mentioned that 2017 for you is kindof the year of the business, and kindof peeling back layers. Have there been anything so far that you, that's been brought to your attention, and you're like oh my God how did I miss that?   A: Like twenty things.   Q: Okay so.   (Laughs)   Q: Oh, give us one of them that would help some of the people sitting here listening.   A: Yeah. Even in, so I'm really into, at the moment especially just being more productive, and being my award of the year is intentional. So just really, just being intentional about, and that comes down to that what do you wanna be in five (5) years. What you wanna be when you're eighty. And so instead of just spinning the wheels to be intentional, and that, it boils down to what to get out of this week, what do I want to get out of this day. So it’s...   Q: Are you really breaking it down like that?   A: Yeah. That's part chart every morning over breakfast. It's like so what are we gonna accomplish today.   Q: Exciting   A: No. But really breaking it down like that because we ended up being so busy last year that our work we've got shortened down to like three days, so, then trying to fit in five (5) days of work in three days of work. Unless you just give up sleeping, you really have to like start trying to get more strategic about how you're gonna spend your time. And I just think that, you know, really focusing on that batch scheduling, is something that we're really getting into and just writing down everything. So if I'm gonna do albums one day way week, I'm gonna do them on this day; if I'm gonna do blog post one day a week, I'm gonna do it on this day. And then you're really in that blog post zone on that day for those two hours, and maybe you do them for the next month, and then like, how great is that, you know, that you've got it done for the month or whatever.                 So just really trying to focus and be a smarter business person, and I think that If you can start doing that on year one, year two, year six, everything is better than necessarily re-examining that at year ten. So, learn from me definitely, you know, the more efficient you can be, and then it takes some work and self-discipline.   Q: So when we were interviewing Greg, he mentioned it took him a couple of years to actually become profitable, how long before you were profitable?   A: Well, I started kindof at a different time. And I think we talked about this a log, that it's hard for me to necessarily from me to tell you exactly what you should be doing in your first year business, because, when I maybe started doing weddings ten (10) years ago, the market was totally different. And even from when Greg really started full time three years ago, it's totally different than when I did.   Q: How has it changed?   A: I think it's changing all the time. When I started like printing was like just starting, there wasn't really even, but I mean that's like so I'm really old now, but really, that's how it was. I mean we were, I had worked for fashion parlours for five (5) years, and gone when I started doing that, there was no digital. So then I went to digital with them, and eventually became a digital tech for fashion photographers, before then saying okay I'm gonna go out and shoot on my own, and shoot weddings. So at that point I was already shooting digital; because that's kindof where I had gone with these fashion photographers. So when I started out, my course and truly everything was incredibly low, and I was just doing my thing, and really it was, I didn't start super low in pricing, I mean at the time, I mean it seems low, but $3,500 or $4,000. Whatever it was ...   Q: Yeah, ten years ago. Yeah. Sure.   A: ... it wasn't too bad for somebody that never shot a wedding before. And that way I was really able to do it, and I was also doing some freelance photo assisting for fashion photographers, so I kindof had that in my backpocket if I was off and I wanna go assist a fashion photographer. So I guess, I guess one answer to that story is, there is always a way to always be making a profit, maybe you just need to work a little harder, and like this conversation too, do something else. Like I think we all wanna be purist, like oh, I only shoot weddings now, and that's like the only work that I do, and really you could go second shoot for somebody else, you could you know, go work at a coffee shop like two days a week, and sometimes just like talking to people, and doing something besides the work that you are in, being just like it can be really refreshing. I was just telling Collin that we, I was a fashion photographer for, or assistant like five (5), so many years ago. And I got a call three weeks ago for Patrick Demarchelier, that they needed a third photo assistant. And I was like okay, well I haven't done this for about eight (8) years. So I immediately called my friend who is a photo assistant, so professionally I was like, what's different, what do I, what am I gonna have to do, and what do you do with social media now. Like there weren't even, like there wasn't even social media back then. And that's how it was. And literally I went and lodged equipment around, and watched the most amazing fashion photographer.   Q: Wait, wait. So you did take the gig?   A: Yeah, I did.   Q: Okay   A: Well cause part of it is also genuine; you're supposed to do the things that terrify you, right. So I was like check. So, I went and did it, and it was so refreshing and at the end of fourteen (14) hours, and running up and down the bitch, and holding umbrellas and whatever, I like got a check in the mail for $250 dollars. And I was like how am I gonna spend it.   Q: Did you frame it?   A: And it was really fun, and it just reminded me too, that like, wow, if we can, we work hard at weddings, but we're also fortunate to be able to make, charge the amount that we do charge at. You know, I think perspective is just a really healthy thing, just once in a while doing something that is like totally uncomfortable, or saying to your friend that, you know, I just need to go to a wedding and like not being the main guy, and like second shoot, and just, I mean it is just healthy to just hit another fresh perspective and just do something different for a day, and that's like personal work too, you know, it could be that. You know we shot a lot of endangered species this year, and travelled to Africa, and it was just, it's refreshing, you'll feel refreshed.     Q: Tell us about this worthwhile course that you're involved with shooting endangered species, and the prints and the charity aspect of that.   A: Yeah. So we, first and foremost I've always been an animal lover and it's really, really probably my greatest passion next to art and photography, and, I've always wanted to photograph endangered species, and kinda combine these two things, but I never really knew how I wanted to do it. And we kindof got the idea to partner with some non-profits, we had two that were like leading in the world of conservation, one is an elephant orphanage in Kenya, and the other is Wild Life Conservancy, partnered with Tusk, which was like involved with Prince Williams, and they're just. They've got this big 65,000 acres in Northern Kenya where they fenced off, they've got guys with guns walking around to make sure that nobody kills these animals. So we went there and just hung out with them and photographed both places for a couple of weeks, and created a series that we ended up selling to benefit these conservancies and to support their work.  And also just to bring awareness and just to show how beautiful these animals are, and just kindof bringing that passion project to life. So it's just really, it was refreshing and we were able to raise a lot of money to support their work, and it was something that we really enjoyed doing and hopefully we'd do more of.   Q: Where can people go to checkout some of these prints, and maybe learn a littlebit about the charities, and that sort of thing?   A: Yeah. Absolutely check it out, its renderloyalty.com, and we're on instagram too. But if you're an animal lover, or just even in your lives, you know, we all get busy, but if there's some small thing that you're passionate about, or in a way that you can give back in in your business. I mean, as we know the world can be quite a scary, complicated place. So if we can just do like our small part.   Q: What makes you think that?   A: I just, it’s a weird mood that I'm getting lately. So, just if, if we can just do a little bit of whatever we are passionate about, even if you just say, oh, you know our business is gonna go back in this way, and go take pictures with the animal soldier, or go take picture of kids in foster, get, you know, whatever it is, just try it out.   Q: Does that kind of, does it kind of refresh you as an artist?   A: I think Absolutely. And I think it also once again, perspective, just to really just realize why you're doing things, and make sure once again, that you're building a business, and a life, and everything that you really feel that has meaning, and so important. I think it's easy to get caught up in like how many Instagram followers I have, and this is super important, you're having a big picture, you really need to have a life, a career and a passion that you're, you're really proud of, and that you at the end of the day can go look at the mirror and be like, I like that person.   Q: I'm not just saying this because she's sitting up here. Go check out the stuff. I love animal photography, and some of the amazing stuff I've seen, especially the stuff of the elephants. It's a great series.   A: Thank you.   Q: So something I always find interesting is you and Chad are like a husband and a wife team.   A: We are. Exciting.   Q: It's always interesting, I'm sure there is a few husband and wife team that we hear. How is it working with your spouse, how are you guys able to separate the business from the personal life.   A: Yeah. We don't. You know I don't know, you know, everyone likes to talk about balance, right. You know, and, I don't know, I think when you do something, sort of I just love, when you do something for say 40hrs or 50hrs, if you're shooting a wedding 60hrs a week. It's really hard for that not to become your life. You know, it really can be all consuming if we're doing the obvious all week, and then we're travelling all weekend and going to a wedding. I mean at the end of the day, like, there is not a lot else we're doing, and so its this. And so, what we've just found is, once again we should be enjoying the journey, and be like really doing projects, and working with people that we're inspired by. And as a couple we've definitely learned through the years that establishing who is doing what, being more organized, and I think this applies to anybody, even if you're just working with an assistant, or an office range, the more organized you can be the less you have issues of you know, miscommunication, or of things, you provide a solid plan for the business, and for us too as a couple.   Q: So can I tell a cute story of how I think that you guys...   A: Sure   Q: Okay. So there on the east coast for most of the year, and I'll call them around 4:00 o' clock in the afternoon, our time still 7:00 in Florida, and they're always cooking dinner together. It's like the cutest thing, it got to the point when I would call them in the afternoon, I'll be like, so what’s for dinner today.   A: You know it's true, that is one thing I mean, we do when we are at home, and we're not travelling, it's really important to us, we're in a, you know really trying to be healthy, and exercise every morning. And that's like where that time scheduling, like we have it scheduled for workout everymorning, and you know these things, and cooking dinner, and on Sunday like getting meal prep, and so then it makes you more organized cause you're not wasting time trying to do all that. You know you can be more focused on your business. So we try to, you know, let's say if the, at the latest, 6:30 really turn it off, pour a glass of wine, maybe put friends on, for dinner, something like that. Just for background that it's clear to you   Q: Anybody have any questions?   Q: Anybody have any questions?   A: Yeah. So we did shoot the entire series on contacts, which was like important to me, becauseobviously shooting, moving big wide animals on a medium for that film makes a lot of sense, right. But it's like, all our manual focus on cook plunks, and then the lions are like... Really, oh, so this is a good experiment to see what happens, I don't think anyone has done this before, but we survived. And the wildlife were surprisingly okay with the organic cook plunks, so, it was 350. It's a really big lens, I have the shoot auto-model part, you cannot possible hand-hold it. Yeah, with the 120 back.   Q: The detail in some of the shorts is amazing, like the ability to see the hair, on like the elephant, it's like crazy. It's good stuff.   A: Yeah. It's really fun. And that's really just more than anything else, I hoped that by the time we got to Africa we can really actually do it, but it really was an experiment, like can we do this, I don't know, let's try. We shot quite a bit, but we, for the most part, it was fun to see what you could do with it, and so same thing, it's really that, I shoot a lot of horses with that as well. It's a fun way to play with that kind of contacts.   Q: How do you travel with all of that equipment?     A: We're pretty good, we have this old pelican ladies bags, years ago, that they're like subsided, they're the only bags you find that can go underneath the seat of those teeny tiny planes, like when you go to Islands, and they're like give me your carry bag, and you're like no it fits. And it's the only one that goes, and then we get to lots of flights at times, so we have two of those, and they fit surprising amount all our camera gear, so that goes with us carry-on, so just two of those, and then we've got one bag, one big suitcase that the light bag, all of these gets checked, so worse case if that got delayed, we could still shoot and do everything. But we're always kind of editing, I mean we've got tripods, we're not the lightest travellers, but I'm also a really, and we shoot both film and digital, so now we have like three contacts that we're travelling with, cause we gotta have a backup, and we also have our digital bodies and all the lighting and everything like that. So, and I'm a big maybe worry-worth, so I always have backups for the backups. You know once you get in an Island in the middle of nowhere, or anything like that, the last thing you wanna do is go, oh, I need some photo equipment. So, we always like to be prepared.   Q: So how did you come up with the idea for the final print shop. Not only that elephant stuff, but you've shot some really cool destination stuff that I've seen, and that we helped you prepare and all that.   A: Well, the main focus. We did a lot of travel stuff, and I think a lot of us, as you travel you just shoot a lot, and it just goes and sits on a hard drive, and it's kind of nice to dust it off and do something with it. And I've also loved photographing courses for a long time, so, just, kind of bringing those passion projects and then it gave me an excuse to go and shoot more personal work which I think is important. So anything that can really inspire you to kind of give yourself an assignment in a way and just do it for your own creativity; it's gonna make your work look better.       Q: Is the print shop actually profitable for you?   A: Of course. Like we're here to talk about business, and I think the cool thing with it is that you don't have to do much to get a set-up. So we kind of launched it into our website revamp. So theoretically, it was a lot of time. That's what we really didn't really, that we didn't really, so if we look at returning time as of right now, that's definitely not. And that's definite you know I'll be very honest; you got to rescan things and stuff like that. And at this point, it’s more of a long term thing; we just launched it like two months ago. So with anything like that, the next thing is oh, we've already got the images, and they're just kind of sitting there. If you can get up a website, something like a page that's less expensive then wait. Then there's not a heavy investment of going and doing that. But, the, what we're also trying to do, is you know, passive income. If there's anything that you can do that doesn't require you to get up and go somewhere and do something. And that's really kind of what we're working into, more of our long-term plan. Its things like that, that it's great when a print sale comes in, and you can go okay order; and out the door and that's nice to see. And there's lots of different ways to do this.     A: So when I, apparently you guys want to do it, he pretty knows how to do it. Like he tells us what to do now.   Q: You should thank her if you guys put up a print shop, and everything goes on smoothly.   A: Yeah. No. I mean yeah, I'll be happy to give anybody advice on things like that; I think the biggest thing is trying to figure out how to do it, that's not a big-time stack, or financial investment. So, it's always what we're trying to do as well.   Q: So, my question is how do you get your digital to a place where you are happy with it?   A: So, this is a big turning point for me this year too, because I was always super frustrated by any digital, like it would literally make me mad, like as I'm doing it, like this is really not making me happy as I'm scrolling through it. And I think I even did this with my Instagram this year, just like a letting go of that, just really being just like it is what it is, you know. I mean like some point you just need to like stop overthinking it, and go like it is what it is. Like those pictures that you're probably doing with it, like I shoot family photos, both film and digital, and then I do party pictures, we do you know once they're like the groomsmen are doing cake stands; time to bring out the digital camera, just saying, then at that point, like, it's a party picture. You know, so get some street lights, have the party lights, and everything like that. But really don't spend hours fussing with it. I just really, I just simplified it, and I just like nice work girls, good exposure, then out the door. You know, and I just think don't overthink it.     Q: So you have any advice on working with wedding planners.   A: Yeah. You know it's really an investment, and I know like the last thing you wanna hear is like I've gotta like invest more time and energy in it. But I think once again, if you can sit back and look at what is the goal, of where I wanna take, what is your ideal client, who is planning that wedding. You know, if you really know who that client is, and really where you wanna take your thing, it would help narrow down, you know you don't wanna reach out to the random top planners, to the top planners of your ideal client. So that night, that's totally gonna be different for me than it is for you, or you know who’s is, and you know anybody else. So really, if you can start back at the beginning of that vision and that strategy, and then take that all the way through, then once you figure out who those people are. So first narrowing down who those people really are, are they, should shooting, are they playing in your area. And then, I mean just reach out to them, be that annoying person. Send them you know, I always do like holiday cards, and I've done lookbooks, I've done different things, you know offer, offer them some values, so, even for me, and I know people hear this all the time, but I think they'll need to hear it again. In so many emails we use this, oh, well yeah, I'm getting into weddings, and I'd really like to shoot for you, and you know, I'm gonna do this, and I'm hoping it'd be like a fashion blah, blah, blah. Yeah, it makes sense when you're typing it out. I'm totally sure that somebody knows too. Instead of like you're flipping, you can like, you know that I really feel like I'm a hard worker and I'm gonna add a lot of value to your team. And I'm really good at wedding film fast, and I'd love to just bring some fresh energetic energy to your thing. So same thing for the wedding planner, reaching out, and you're kind of going what value will I add, and maybe that's a clever issue, you know I've noticed you got some employees on your team, and you know I'd love to if you're interested just come and do some headshots for you guys, or anything like that. Like provide essential value. So just being creative in that sense, that maybe, can do something fine, something that they're interested in, and really trying to connect to them in a creative way.     Q: So how did you break into destination weddings, and start getting that kind of business?   A: Yeah. And I think that, you know like it's all gonna go back to the same thing, like if you say that's really what you wanna do, and that’s like what you want, like your end game is to be travelling and to be doing all those things; then, looking at, okay well, first if you can kind of fake it till you make it. So that's one of the first editorials that I did was in the keys, and it was like this place that I've always worked with fashion models, that, and it was like this girl, and I would use models, and they're always looking for us to test with models, so, I had it like on a rock, it was my barley inspired shoot, and using the keys, it wasn't a barley, it looks kind of like it was. And, so, then that like, that kind of old setting, and then... and being smart, I mean if you don't like websites and SEO, and anything like that; then a friend who does, and you guys trade each other for whatever you are good at cause that stuff is so important then. I’m like need deep in Google analytics, like I also want to launch a new website, like all these long key stuff happens, like you get bounces on weird things, and your SEO firm, taking your blog from five years of archives, and moving it… all these weird things happen, and you have to like dig deep into the numbers side of it, and I think your destination especially, you gotta get that hit, that hit of kind of showing, that Paris wedding, or wherever it is you wanna be. So that's no 1. And when you're traveling, if you go somewhere, if you go on vacation, like, be intentional about it. Like go, like, we're not going to I don’t know where you wanna go, New York City, we're going to go to Huawei, and learn there, do all these cool stuff, and do a shoot. And maybe Instagramming it, like showing, like I'm in Huawei, I'm here all the time. You know what I mean (laughs) And you're like, you can really kind of fake it till you make it. And just, if you're really kind of conscious about doing that, over and over and over, it'll work.   Q: So the question is like the, we’ll use the elephants as an example, but the animals conservatory, is that you thought about, did they reach out to you, how did that go about?   A: Yeah. It kind of ties in back to the wedding planner question, cause that was very same thing. All of a sudden I'm like it's square one. Nobody knows who I am, I have never taken pictures of wild animals, ever. And I'm like please let me come to Africa, and take pictures of your animals. Like, please. Of course, they were like don't understand your email. And then I send like five more, and then I find like three other people that are listening there, and I started emailing them, then I actually started calling and then I'm like no it's a really good idea, and then they said no. And then I found like another person, and I got in their ear, and they're like hmm, that's really going to be a good idea. So, just really, I was annoyingly persistent, and I'm really like good at being stubborn, and in that way very, very persistent, and it pays off in things like that. Like when people tell me no, it kind of inspires me more.   Q: Why did you decide to shoot that in film, or on film?   A: Just seemed like I have to do it. And it, and I think there is something, maybe it is the dual film altogether, I think there is something true about it, and, maybe that's why we love it so much with weddings. You can't really force it up that much, you know, we see a lot of, even with wild life survey, a lot of it is really digitized, high contrast, it almost looks like all of a sudden they're like in the studio. And they're like, were you really there, like, it's just so far removed from what that animal is, and I think that even the people that I am shooting at a wedding, or while I am shooting a wild animal, I really want their soul to kind of come through there, and I really like kind of capture everything about that. And to me that's just doing them justice, and I think the same thing with a bride or anything like that. I don't wanna make her like this Barbie that looks good in the picture, but in real life she's like not, like, I really wanna capture the best side of it all, but have it being real. So film seems like the only choice for that.   Q: You stole my question. But basically, do you, Good question by the way. Do you and Chad see all the business changing for you in five (5) or ten (10).   A: Yeah. I mean definitely all this stuff about what I'm preaching, will definitely sit down and trying to figure out where we're gonna be in five (5) years, and where we wanna be in ten (10) years. And really it's like my word is intentional, for this year, it's really about being intentional. I want every project that we're doing to really be something that we're excited about, and in spite of it's also working to get us to that end goal, and for us, that's absolutely destination weddings, and you know these multi-day adventurous experiences that people are taking along their closest family and friends for, and you know this work, we're kind of travelling couples that have a high attention that we do, we definitely wanna keep on doing those, but less. So, we can really focus on that. So instead of maybe doing 20 more weddings in a year you know in instead of maybe doing twenty five (25) weddings in five years, you know it's fifteen (15). That would be really cool. And we wanna be doing more conservational thing, doing more of that as well, and so that's kind of our trajectory of where we're trying to take it, and to be having a bit more time for life. So that's where we are really focusing our energies, and to learning how to be more efficient people, being more productive and just have more time for all those other things that for the last of years, we hadn't had a lot of time for.   Q: So my question is gonna be all deep, like when I saw you earlier this week, like, where do you see yourself in five (5) years.   A: I'm going to be treating 15 weddings on that branch, with foster puppies everywhere.   Q: So the question is how do you shape the reception, or how do you like the reception.   A: Yeah. So like I said, we always travel with a lot of, we travel speed lights, we travel quantum’s, so I've got, I'm always like a lot of bodies on, so I'll shoot a reception with a contrast, and we'll have a video light for that, for what I'm shooting, first dance, cake cutting like that, but then I also want to balance that with colour, and everything too. So, I'll have my digital body and the pocket wizard attached to the quantum for that, to kind of give that other look with that going up, and I also have a 35mm black and white film, and that one is just gonna have to flash on it, so I kind of is just straight, so I like it for the wide angle. For the most part, that's kind of the main thing. It's pretty simple; it's easy to travel. Just the quantum, the on-camera speed lights, and the video light for when we're doing cake-cutting and first dance.   Q: With the contacts, when you're shooting at the reception what flashlight are you using?   A: Just video light for that one. Yep. Yeah. So I'll have someone hold that one, yeah, and normally we're trying, normally it's just short night. 99% the stuff we're doing and we're kind of getting towards now, let's bring in the third for a lot of things, but normally it's just the two of us, and we're, we've worked together so long now, and that's the only other thing that I can say is like, if you don't have a child, like go find one. You know find one, next yeah I'll be selling prototypes, and yeah, you know, find somebody that works with you consistently, because you really need that support, and you need somebody that knows, like when you go to a place, they like know exactly what you are saying, and then you go like cut the video right, and he's like where do we go. Cause it's like he'll be shooting as well, so if I'm shooting the contrast, he'll also be shooting a digital, like, with a longer lens, and you know, you really wanna like, you know, just not give like a tight photo, and I really wanna give them that diversity, and so I feel like we can do that together, so if you can have a good second shooter, a good assistant will really helping you to execute that; it's gonna make it a lot easier, so he’ll kind of go back and forth with that video ...   Q: True. So what advice would you give to get a husband, or it could be anybody that’s on your team up to speed, if they're not a formally trained photographer?   A: Yeah. So we actually started; how Chad started shooting it wasn't ever like oh, least think you should,  I wanted a photographer, like oh I'll shoot for you on the weekends when I could be watching football. And he was definitely like no.But we actually, our dog, actually, so I used to do jolly with him, like we went around and jump strums, and some tubes, and so I kindof at the time, put a digital, the long lens in the sand, gave him my three minute crash course, and like said getit and focus, and I'm like running with the dog and jumping. I got a lot of pictures back there and they were actually sharp, and there's some pain involved, and I was like hmmm. So I kind of got the idea, and what I is, for the first .external weddings that we did, I mean you can do this as some exercise, have a second shooter. That is, your friend, and just put on, put the camera and totally everything manual of course, and really be like just come and shoot and just do it. And I think the sooner they can just rip off that bandage, do it the right way, and not have pressure on them too, like don't expect anything out of it, just say, just start doing it, practice, practice, practice, practice, and then when anything good does comes out of it. Like sit down and have that review together and go like this, whatever this was, that worked.

Welcome to the Photo Report Podcast where we talk to top-level Pro Photographers about the business behind their craft, their journeys to get them, where they are and the lessons they've learned along the way. This is Season 2 of the Photo Report; but Season 1 for the Podcast portion of things, you can go online to thephotoreport.com to see past video interviews as well as the videos from this season. And season 3 is already in the works but what we have for this season is a couple of handfuls of talks by Photographers, Bloggers, Editors at the Richard Photo Lab Booth that was held at W PPI conference out in Vegas; they're packed full of valuable info of what basically you wouldn't get unless you attended one of their workshops. So, we're really excited to share these talks with you and think you're going to love them as well. During this season of the Photo Report, the interviews are hosted  by Alan Cohen from Richard Photo Lab, episode one is with French Photographer, Greg Fink; his work is stunning but the insight in this talk, coming from a business background and 10 years plus working in the marketing department of a massive US company is incredibly helpful in thinking through the intentional strategy he has in his Photo Business. Hopefully, you can take some of these lessons and apply them to your own business before we get into this episode though, this podcast is brought to you by Film Supply Club; it's partly the reason why it took so long to get these WPPI videos live because I spent the first half of the year launching it but Film Supply Club is the best place for you to get film, if you're a film shooting photographer; it's a member based community where once a member you get access to discounted prices on film and other photo related products and services like Richard Photo Lab, Cloud Spot, Lens Pro To Go, Bench Accounting and a lot more to come. But ultimately, it's here to strengthen our Photography Community and save you all as much cash as possible. Now, onto the show… Host - Elan Cohen of Richard Photo Lab: Greg Fink, sexy and handsome French Photographer, featured on Style Me Pretty and on Wedding Sparrow, named as Harper’s Bizarre Wedding Photogs of the year 2016. Elan Cohen:  So, tell us a little bit about your story, how you got into photography. Greg Fink: So, basically I've always been a photographer, I got my first camera in the hand when I was 12, I was lucky enough to have a dark home at home when I was a kid because my dad just loved that so he taught me how to process my negatives, how to do my prints. So, I've always done that but then my parents told me that I should get a real job so I went to Business School and I worked 10 years for Procter & Gamble as a Marketing Manager in Paris and I was kind of very sad in that life. So, I started shooting Wedding 7 years ago when I was still working another job, first for friends, then friends of friends and all of a sudden you realize you can have a market. So, I quit my job 3 years ago so I've been full-time since. Elan Cohen: I always tell this story to people that are just starting out; I was really impressed when we first started working together I remember you wanted to do the Book Project and the way you went about it was completely different than other clients do, where you told me this is my budget for the book, this is what I'm looking for, how many books can I get? As opposed to most people who will say: “Okay I need a hundred of this book” and then we give them the price. So, I thought that was really impressive, can you kind of explain a little- talk a little bit about how your prior experience in business has helped your photography business? Greg Fink: Yeah, so my prior experience in business really helps on a daily basis; whether it is branding or accounting, managing a P&L, everything and you need to realize that 70% of Photographers- Wedding Photographers are going to be out of the market in 3 years, 70%. And in 10 years only I think it's 2 or 3% Elan Cohen: 2%, yeah. Greg Fink: That is still going to be in the market after10 years and the main reason of that is because people don't make money out of it. So, of course, it's a passion and of course your first driver needs to be the passion for photography and for people because you're shooting weddings but you still need to make money out of it otherwise you're going to be out of the market. So, it was really important to me and as I said, I've shot my first wedding 7 years ago and I only went full-time 3 years ago because that was a long transition for me because I wanted to take the time to sustain my business and be sure that I can make a living out of it and then when I go to the market, I'm ready for it and this is financially sustainable. So, what business really taught me before is that you cannot invest money and don't expect a return on investment;  a lot of people tell me "I judge by the contacts, I'm going to shoot Fuji and I'm going to be a Destination Fine Art Photographer” whatever that means? And that's great but you need to be absolutely aware of all of the costs that are going to come with it because what's expensive is not just buying the contacts, everything that implies after that like shooting, processing, everything. So, when I decided to do these books, that was a marketing investment to me and I say “Okay, what’s the budget I can invest on this item this year?” because I have a business plan and I heard it in mind it was like I don’t know $2000 and I came to Cohen and say “okay, what can I have with that amount of money?” Elan Cohen: And it turned out it was a really random number of books if I remember correctly it was like 62. [Laughs] Greg Fink: And then I negotiated 63 and… Elan Cohen: And then we threw in for 64 and he agreed to speak so… Greg Fink: [Chuckles] It all worked out and after- and a year after that he told me “Oh, by the way, we had ten remaining” Elan Cohen: Thank you. So, can you tell the story that you were telling me the other day, kind of touching on what you were talking about on having a return on profit, when at one of your workshops you were reviewing- um with one of the attendees and how she started crying when she figured out that she had actually lost money on a wedding, she didn’t realize what was going into that? Greg Fink: Yeah, what's really important to me with pricing because most of the Photographers will come and talk to me are wondering about their pricing. I am not- is it your case always like thinking “I am a cheap enough” “I am expensive enough” and everybody is wondering about this pricing. My vision of pricing is that you need to know what amount of money you want to make every year for yourself and that number is going to be personal to you; maybe it's going to  be 100,000 for you, maybe it's going to be a million for you but that number is personal; so I'm no one to tell you your pricing should be 5 grand, 10 grand, 15 grand, it depends on your number and from that vision you're going to implement your pricing then.  Let's say you need 100,000 a year and you want to shoot 20 events, that probably means you should have a pricing around 5,000. The problem with Photographers today is that they approach pricing by looking at the market and say “Oh I'm going to  judge my quality myself and I think this is quite comparable to this Photographer which is worth like 3 grand, so I'm going to  be at 3 grand too” and I had this photographer coming to me for one-on-one session and I told her what is the wedding you're the most excited about in your portfolio? So, she shows me that wedding and I asked her: “How much did you charge on that wedding?” And she tells me $2,000. I say “How many rolls of film did you shoot?” So, she gave me the numbers, when we make the calculation and I say “How many assistants did you have on, how much did you pay them?” And we make the calculation and I just proved to her that she lost $700 on that wedding and she started crying. Losing money on the wedding is not a problem, what is the problem is not knowing about it because everybody can make investments shooting a destination weddings; I mean sometimes you have this inquiry in Bali, in Thailand, whatever and you say: “Okay let's do a holiday, so I’m going to compromise on my pricing” and that's fine, that's fine if you have an objective be on it, if you want to develop your portfolio in Asia, whatever but it's important that you know if you're making money or not. Elan Cohen: How long before you actually were able to turn it- turn the business into a profit center as opposed to an investment? Greg Fink: Almost five years and to me that is the biggest mistakes that the Wedding Photographers do today. Wedding Photography is an amazing job, it's a passion, you can work from home, you can manage your own schedule and you have a very few investment needed. The problem is if you look at the company we succeed, none of them don't invest, if you want to succeed with a company, you need to invest and the biggest mistakes that wedding photographers make is that they think that they can work from home, just invest like 5 grand on equipment and they're going to succeed. That doesn’t work that way because you're going to need to invest and I'm not telling you to invest tons of money in marketing, in advertising because I don't really   believe in it; especially- except if it's like very focused to your niche market but my investment was rising my pricing in a year-on-year until the moment where I can make a   living out of it, which was only last   year even though my first wedding was   shot seven years ago. So, to me, the problem with Wedding Photographers today, who get out of the market, is because they didn't plan that; they quit that job, they expect that they’re going to make a   living out of it in like a year or 2 years, it doesn't work that way. Look at all of the names you follow on social media and ask yourself for how long these people have been on the market and most of the time it's going to be 5years,10 years.  Zoe has been here for like 15 and longevity to me is the biggest competitive advantage that you can have, you cannot succeed to me, in that market in just 2 years. Elan Cohen:  What do you consider to be a   healthy profit margin? Greg Fink: Once again that number is going to depend on what you want to make as a living. If you want to   make 50 grand per year, if you want   to make 200 that's not the same, but it's really important that when you answer an inquiry and you decide to accept a wedding or not you know exactly the bottom line, so whether this catch on to shooting a roll of medium format film cost me $29. Elan Cohen: And that's when you factor in the cost of the shipping, the cost of the flying and then what we charge. Greg Fink: And I include everything in that; meaning processing, the cost of the film, the cost of shipping from France- any DHL package from Paris cost me $150 dollars, so I know that in average I'm going to be included 50 rolls in a package that’s $3.00 per roll on top, so $29 is my number. I want to know on a wedding exactly what's going to be left in my pocket at the end of the day. So, let's say I'm going to shoot   60 rolls, 70 rolls, 80 rolls times 29 plus the cost of my packaging, plus the cost of my album, plus the cost of shipping my packaging to the clients   because I deliver prints that number at the end of the wedding, you need to know exactly what that is. And I'm not here to tell you this is a good margin, this is   a bad margin because that number once again needs to be personal depending on   the fact that you're going to shoot 10 weddings a year or 50 weddings a year but you need to know that number and not a lot of photographers know that; I mean know that number Elan Cohen: Do you go into the wedding with - because it seems like it's really thought out and the kind of a producer's background - Do you go in knowing the exact amount of rolls that you're going to shoot per wedding or at least have a general idea of how many rolls? Greg Fink: I do have a general idea, I don't limit myself because you always have the possibility to have the wedding of the year that very day and if you have to limit yourself to 30 rolls you're   going to be really pissed. So, I don’t limit  myself and I always take more roles that-  than not enough but what I realized this year I shot this wedding it was a 5 million dollars budget wedding, John Legend was at the ceremony- crazy stuff and the Wedding Planner is putting so much pressure talking about that wedding like “Oh my God! 5 million dollars! John Legend... blah, blah, blah, I shot 200 rolls on that wedding, 200!  An average wedding for me is going to be more like 60, so I shot 3 times more than a regular wedding. If you look at the final results, it's more like I put pressure on myself, just shooting frantically just because there was so much fuss around that day. And if I look at the best weddings I’ve shot to me, that I've been published, its weddings where I’ve shot my average 50/60 rolls. So, I'm not saying you need to limit   yourself but you still need to have your number in mind, you need to know “Okay, I am confident in delivering a great wedding with 30 rolls, 50, 80” and if you   realize that you're going out of the way on a wedding, like shooting 150 or 200, you will realize that most of these photos are just doubles, triples and it doesn't  really make any sense when on the final product. Elan Cohen: What are action steps that photographers can take to get to the path of profitability? Greg Fink: I think the first one is having a business plan. Too many   Photographers I meet don't have a   Business Plan and when I speak about   Business Plan, people are already scared   because they imagine that 100 pages   booklets and I'm not speaking about that, I’m just thinking about having very easy access spread sheets with your numbers, which is, what is the revenue you want   to make in 2017? And that revenue depends on how many events. Once again, let's be really simple, let's say you want to do 50 grand; you want to shoot 20 weddings, that probably means you're going to need to charge in average 2500 and that can be as simple as that and once you have that business plan you   need to do everything to stick to your   objectives and targets. People don't like it when I say that but to me shooting weddings, I shoot between 25 and 30 weddings per year; so basically, I have 30   clients per year, that's not a lot.  I mean if you look at most companies, we don't   have like 30 clients a year; they have really more than that.  I have 30 clients per year, shooting 30 weddings a year to me is execution of my Business Plan; its execution of course and I love it, but to me, 80% of my job is finding the 30 persons. Elan Cohen: You said 80% of your job is finding the 30 clients? Greg Fink: I  tend to believe that and   people don't really like it because they say:  “You're a photographer you need to enjoy shooting weddings” And I do but if I don't find this 30 persons, I am not shooting anything, I'm not booking and I will be out of the market. So, I try to dedicate 80% of my resources to networking, social media, communicating, featuring, whatever to find these 30 clients; this is my main objective as a wedding photographer.  So, 20% shooting is execution but that's only my opinion. Elan Cohen: What has been the most successful to help you find these clients? Greg Fink: Relationships with vendors and that's something else people don't like that I say. I tend to think that my client is the Wedding Planner. The bride and groom who are going to book me- 100% of my weddings are books through Planners. So, the planner who is contacting me usually displays work to the clients and they say “Yes or No.” The bride and groom in 99% of the time have been very happy with the results and these guys- of course, you can have some word of mouth and the friends of these guys are going to see your album on the coffee table but they are customers, they're coming once. The wedding planner, if you develop a   relationship with them, if they love your quality, if they love your style, if you love your professionalism. First,   you're going to book one client with them, a year after that you're going to book 3, a year after that you're going to book 5. I have these Wedding Planners in France, we started at the same time like shooting 5 years; I mean she started 5 years ago, I started shooting 5 years ago- like real weddings 5 years ago. I started 7 years ago but the first 2 years was basically $500 wedding and we started kind of at the same level. She tested me on one wedding, the year after I got 2, last year I got 4, this year I got 8; 8 is 30% of my business, I'm [ Unclear word 18:48] 25 that's huge. So, sometimes that's scary because I say “Oh my God! If I have a problem with that Planner, what am I going to do?” But developing in these relationships; so first you have one Planner you really work well with, then you have 2, then you have 5; maybe not a Planner, it can be a venue. I have 5 weddings in the same venue this year because they really liked a wedding I shot there like 2 years ago, now they refer me to the clients. So, to me, the most profitable investment in this industry is to develop these relationships.  I'm not saying you cannot make marketing investments but it needs to be very focused. The main reason why I did these books is because I want to send them to the Planners I   really work well with and you don't want to be working with everybody; I mean I’ve had bad experiences with Planners, I don't   want to work with them anymore and it's   fine because once again all you need is- In my case, it's 30 clients per year and my market is wherever my clients want to fly me. Elan Cohen: At what point did you feel that your business was healthy enough to start taking on other endeavors, like the workshops and one-on-ones and that sort of thing? Greg Fink: I didn't launch the workshop for telling myself “Okay, my business is sustainable enough, so let's do a workshop.” Everything that I do in my   business needs to be profitable, so the workshop to me was for about the workshop it was a way to say “Okay I can add more profit to my business” but I didn't wait for the Wedding Business to be sustainable because my first workshop- that was 3years ago and I still   didn't make any money out of weddings back in those days. So, what's   important is that you monitor every action that you make and for example, I'm   still questioning the workshop today even though it's been the 3rd edition because it's a huge investment in terms of timing and I basically don't make a lot of money out of it. So, every year I'm like “Okay should I still keep on doing it?” because it's so much investment in terms of time. What's important is that you can do anything you want as long as it's in line and it serves your branding. The workshop to me, I knew that the first year I will not   make any money out of it but it was the opportunity for me to design my own style shoots because usually when you collaborate with Planners and statutes, it's your vision of course but it's also theirs and nice that my workshop was the way for me to say “Okay, let's show the   world what I can do if I'm the Art Director.” Obviously I- that was the main reason why I launched it. So, basically you can do anything as long as it serves your brand and it's profitable. Elan Cohen: So, for you it's twofold; it's the workshop but also it's the chance to kind of art direct the whole thing? Greg Fink: Yeah because even though I have a mixed feeling about style shoots, there are- very difficult today to be featured because there are so many out there. A lot of people do the same thing and the   workshop for me was my-my workshop was also the way to express myself and say   “Okay, I want to do is Style Shoot but I want to do it differently, I just don't want it to be the bride and a nice table.”  So, every year I have this like crazy theme going on up nowhere. So, for example without telling any secrets the next one's going to be Alice in Wonderland because we want to adapt Alice in   Wonderland to the wedding industry and that's going to be so fun and so different. So, that was my vision behind the workshop; show my vision of what we can do differently but then you still need to have the profitable side of it in your mind because of you if you don't   make any money out of something you need to have a very good reason to keep on doing it. Elan Cohen: We have all their business cards, so if anybody steals the Alice in Wonderland idea from you, we’ll know how to find them. Anybody have any questions for Greg? Question: So, the question was from Anna. Once you had the 62 books, how did you decide who and where you were going to send them? Greg Fink: That's a very good question and honestly I was like “Oh my God! I could send more than that but it was a good exercise also because you don't want to be communicating to the mass because once again 30 clients a year, where are these people? Where are we going to buy the dress? And for example let's take   Ramones as an example, she is a Bridal Designer and we don't have a single common client because most of our market is in France and the price of her dress is between $4-5000, my clients tend to invest more than that in their dress, so, for example, I at this book on her shelf for a year and I didn't   book any client out of it. So, it was a   good exercise for me to say “okay I have only 62 books, what am I going to do with them? So, probably 35 are going to be to Planners, who are this Planner? Am I sure that they operate in my market which is also France, Italy; I mean I can still send one out of the blue in Germany, in   London and maybe it will work but there are high chances that it won't. But if I'm sending that to these planners I don't work with yet, who operates in the South of France and we're going to see images that speak to them, then maybe that's going to take. So, you want to know where your clients are going to their venue, which Planners they're going to be using, which dress they're going to buy, you need to know that. For example, I have a very specific profile of my client and if I look at my wedding- 80% of my weddings are usually the same type of couple, it's usually between 30 and 35- the groom   is older, he might be divorced, he already has kids, they're paying for the wedding by themselves, he is in   finance, usually Wall Street or making tons of money, it's always the same profile. So, you need to know where these guys are going to buy their dress, which Planner etc. You don't want to be like sending money because that's money just anywhere. How do I charge for travel? Very easy, I have this expert spreadsheet, the first line is flight, second line is transferred to airport, the third line is going to be hotel, car, gas, food, and in France sales tax is 20%, so to the sum of all of it I need to add 20% and the reason why I do that is that for years I've not charged enough for travel. 2015, I remember the number I charged 15,000 Euros for travel, I spent almost 30- the double and that's another problem to me, for Wedding Photographers because most of the time they're so scared of selling their package that they forget   that if they don't charge enough for travel, that's going to be a huge loss in terms of profits at the end of the wedding. So, I'm   making this very simple calculation and usually, the number is scary. And I have this bride- I just booked a wedding in the South of France and I had   this bride telling the Wedding Planner: “Does he fly first-class?” And I explained to her the calculation and I don't make any profit out of the travel but if you add everything;  for example I live in Paris, going to the airport is going to be 60 Euros, back 60 Euros usually that is something you don't have in mind because you just think about the price of the flight, you're going to have food for the 2 days wedding; you need to buy food, if you rent a car you need to   have toll, you're going to need gas, everything you need to include. Question: So, are you up charging if you have to come a day earlier anything like that even though you're not shooting; time away from home basically? Greg Fink: No, I don't   charge. I don't charge time away from home but I shoot 5 or 6 weddings a year in the US and for example I was not charging  enough for the US because like staying in the US for three days, basically, it cost me  between $3000 - $4,000 and when you   think about that number, see that's huge! But that's what it actually cost me, but no, I don't charge- if I travel for 5 days or time away from home, I don't charge and my pricing for destination wedding. I only have one price list, destination is not more expensive than shooting in Paris. So, the cost of travel is not included in my pricing because I found it very   confusing because I might still have a wedding in Paris or South of France,  it's an hour flight I can leave in the morning, be back the next day, that's going to be $700 compared to if I fly to the US that's going to be $4,000. So, I feel bad of integrating just like one average pricing in my - one average travel pricing.