Summary: 2016 was a fun year, we like all that, is about updating new brands and so, we launched that and then also, kindof took the time to take some personal work and really kindof organize that into just a place that would all the, to be able to sell prints of those in a way that was easy and organized. And showcased it, that was even like more work for us. I think I've talked to several of you, that everyone said oh somebody wanna buy one (1) of our prints, and you know. Okay now, how do I? What size do I do it? How expensive is that? How do I get it to you? And it's actually more work to actually fulfill that order, that when it's a final print like that, if you don't go through all the process. So we finally took the time and did that. Q: We learned that together, but it's a lot harder than just starting the print) A: Yeah, yeah. This is a very nice man here. We put him through a lot in 2016. Q: No. You guys are fine, you taught us some stuffs, so that's great. What would be something that if you could look back to when you started shooting, a bit of advice that you wish someone had given you. Q: So, part of what we've been talking about this year, so much is really the business behind what we're doing, and specifically you know we say fine art photography maybe, maybe six years ago, everyone would say no, I'm a photo journalistic photographer, and then it was fine art photographer, even now that may have been over used. Kindof like you know, organic, well then it was on every single food package, well then it doesn't really mean anything anymore. So, I think really just getting back to the business, and really taking the time to come up with the vision for your business, and more specifically for your life. Because if you just start doing and your goal is to go to the next wedding, to take the prettiest next picture, and you know to get on that magazine, and get on that blog, and you know, becomes the rat race, and you're kind of in it and then maybe years go by and you go, is this exactly where I wanted to be? Am I working towards the objective, towards the vision that I want for my life? And so really just being more strategic about that, and thinking about what you want your life to look like, and I mean really like, where is that, what are you doing everyday? Are you home on the weekends? Are you on a plane three days a week? What does that life look like? Because maybe you're kindof running in the wrong direction and wasting a lot of energy to chase after something that you don't even really want at the end of the day. And I think it is easy to get caught up in kindof what other people are doing, and what they have, and kind of go oh that looks amazing, I want that. But when you really sit to think about it, and go oh well that means we have to pack a bag on Thursdays and say goodbye to their kids. And they come home on Monday, and you know they're not there for that. And they miss Johnny’s soccer game, or whatever that may be, is that really you know necessarily what you want? So just kindof figure those things out and making sure it, there's a trajectory and a strategy to get there. Q: So you've mentioned that 2017 for you is kindof the year of the business, and kindof peeling back layers. Have there been anything so far that you, that's been brought to your attention, and you're like oh my God how did I miss that? A: Like twenty things. Q: Okay so. (Laughs) Q: Oh, give us one of them that would help some of the people sitting here listening. A: Yeah. Even in, so I'm really into, at the moment especially just being more productive, and being my award of the year is intentional. So just really, just being intentional about, and that comes down to that what do you wanna be in five (5) years. What you wanna be when you're eighty. And so instead of just spinning the wheels to be intentional, and that, it boils down to what to get out of this week, what do I want to get out of this day. So it’s... Q: Are you really breaking it down like that? A: Yeah. That's part chart every morning over breakfast. It's like so what are we gonna accomplish today. Q: Exciting A: No. But really breaking it down like that because we ended up being so busy last year that our work we've got shortened down to like three days, so, then trying to fit in five (5) days of work in three days of work. Unless you just give up sleeping, you really have to like start trying to get more strategic about how you're gonna spend your time. And I just think that, you know, really focusing on that batch scheduling, is something that we're really getting into and just writing down everything. So if I'm gonna do albums one day way week, I'm gonna do them on this day; if I'm gonna do blog post one day a week, I'm gonna do it on this day. And then you're really in that blog post zone on that day for those two hours, and maybe you do them for the next month, and then like, how great is that, you know, that you've got it done for the month or whatever. So just really trying to focus and be a smarter business person, and I think that If you can start doing that on year one, year two, year six, everything is better than necessarily re-examining that at year ten. So, learn from me definitely, you know, the more efficient you can be, and then it takes some work and self-discipline. Q: So when we were interviewing Greg, he mentioned it took him a couple of years to actually become profitable, how long before you were profitable? A: Well, I started kindof at a different time. And I think we talked about this a log, that it's hard for me to necessarily from me to tell you exactly what you should be doing in your first year business, because, when I maybe started doing weddings ten (10) years ago, the market was totally different. And even from when Greg really started full time three years ago, it's totally different than when I did. Q: How has it changed? A: I think it's changing all the time. When I started like printing was like just starting, there wasn't really even, but I mean that's like so I'm really old now, but really, that's how it was. I mean we were, I had worked for fashion parlours for five (5) years, and gone when I started doing that, there was no digital. So then I went to digital with them, and eventually became a digital tech for fashion photographers, before then saying okay I'm gonna go out and shoot on my own, and shoot weddings. So at that point I was already shooting digital; because that's kindof where I had gone with these fashion photographers. So when I started out, my course and truly everything was incredibly low, and I was just doing my thing, and really it was, I didn't start super low in pricing, I mean at the time, I mean it seems low, but $3,500 or $4,000. Whatever it was ... Q: Yeah, ten years ago. Yeah. Sure. A: ... it wasn't too bad for somebody that never shot a wedding before. And that way I was really able to do it, and I was also doing some freelance photo assisting for fashion photographers, so I kindof had that in my backpocket if I was off and I wanna go assist a fashion photographer. So I guess, I guess one answer to that story is, there is always a way to always be making a profit, maybe you just need to work a little harder, and like this conversation too, do something else. Like I think we all wanna be purist, like oh, I only shoot weddings now, and that's like the only work that I do, and really you could go second shoot for somebody else, you could you know, go work at a coffee shop like two days a week, and sometimes just like talking to people, and doing something besides the work that you are in, being just like it can be really refreshing. I was just telling Collin that we, I was a fashion photographer for, or assistant like five (5), so many years ago. And I got a call three weeks ago for Patrick Demarchelier, that they needed a third photo assistant. And I was like okay, well I haven't done this for about eight (8) years. So I immediately called my friend who is a photo assistant, so professionally I was like, what's different, what do I, what am I gonna have to do, and what do you do with social media now. Like there weren't even, like there wasn't even social media back then. And that's how it was. And literally I went and lodged equipment around, and watched the most amazing fashion photographer. Q: Wait, wait. So you did take the gig? A: Yeah, I did. Q: Okay A: Well cause part of it is also genuine; you're supposed to do the things that terrify you, right. So I was like check. So, I went and did it, and it was so refreshing and at the end of fourteen (14) hours, and running up and down the bitch, and holding umbrellas and whatever, I like got a check in the mail for $250 dollars. And I was like how am I gonna spend it. Q: Did you frame it? A: And it was really fun, and it just reminded me too, that like, wow, if we can, we work hard at weddings, but we're also fortunate to be able to make, charge the amount that we do charge at. You know, I think perspective is just a really healthy thing, just once in a while doing something that is like totally uncomfortable, or saying to your friend that, you know, I just need to go to a wedding and like not being the main guy, and like second shoot, and just, I mean it is just healthy to just hit another fresh perspective and just do something different for a day, and that's like personal work too, you know, it could be that. You know we shot a lot of endangered species this year, and travelled to Africa, and it was just, it's refreshing, you'll feel refreshed. Q: Tell us about this worthwhile course that you're involved with shooting endangered species, and the prints and the charity aspect of that. A: Yeah. So we, first and foremost I've always been an animal lover and it's really, really probably my greatest passion next to art and photography, and, I've always wanted to photograph endangered species, and kinda combine these two things, but I never really knew how I wanted to do it. And we kindof got the idea to partner with some non-profits, we had two that were like leading in the world of conservation, one is an elephant orphanage in Kenya, and the other is Wild Life Conservancy, partnered with Tusk, which was like involved with Prince Williams, and they're just. They've got this big 65,000 acres in Northern Kenya where they fenced off, they've got guys with guns walking around to make sure that nobody kills these animals. So we went there and just hung out with them and photographed both places for a couple of weeks, and created a series that we ended up selling to benefit these conservancies and to support their work. And also just to bring awareness and just to show how beautiful these animals are, and just kindof bringing that passion project to life. So it's just really, it was refreshing and we were able to raise a lot of money to support their work, and it was something that we really enjoyed doing and hopefully we'd do more of. Q: Where can people go to checkout some of these prints, and maybe learn a littlebit about the charities, and that sort of thing? A: Yeah. Absolutely check it out, its renderloyalty.com, and we're on instagram too. But if you're an animal lover, or just even in your lives, you know, we all get busy, but if there's some small thing that you're passionate about, or in a way that you can give back in in your business. I mean, as we know the world can be quite a scary, complicated place. So if we can just do like our small part. Q: What makes you think that? A: I just, it’s a weird mood that I'm getting lately. So, just if, if we can just do a little bit of whatever we are passionate about, even if you just say, oh, you know our business is gonna go back in this way, and go take pictures with the animal soldier, or go take picture of kids in foster, get, you know, whatever it is, just try it out. Q: Does that kind of, does it kind of refresh you as an artist? A: I think Absolutely. And I think it also once again, perspective, just to really just realize why you're doing things, and make sure once again, that you're building a business, and a life, and everything that you really feel that has meaning, and so important. I think it's easy to get caught up in like how many Instagram followers I have, and this is super important, you're having a big picture, you really need to have a life, a career and a passion that you're, you're really proud of, and that you at the end of the day can go look at the mirror and be like, I like that person. Q: I'm not just saying this because she's sitting up here. Go check out the stuff. I love animal photography, and some of the amazing stuff I've seen, especially the stuff of the elephants. It's a great series. A: Thank you. Q: So something I always find interesting is you and Chad are like a husband and a wife team. A: We are. Exciting. Q: It's always interesting, I'm sure there is a few husband and wife team that we hear. How is it working with your spouse, how are you guys able to separate the business from the personal life. A: Yeah. We don't. You know I don't know, you know, everyone likes to talk about balance, right. You know, and, I don't know, I think when you do something, sort of I just love, when you do something for say 40hrs or 50hrs, if you're shooting a wedding 60hrs a week. It's really hard for that not to become your life. You know, it really can be all consuming if we're doing the obvious all week, and then we're travelling all weekend and going to a wedding. I mean at the end of the day, like, there is not a lot else we're doing, and so its this. And so, what we've just found is, once again we should be enjoying the journey, and be like really doing projects, and working with people that we're inspired by. And as a couple we've definitely learned through the years that establishing who is doing what, being more organized, and I think this applies to anybody, even if you're just working with an assistant, or an office range, the more organized you can be the less you have issues of you know, miscommunication, or of things, you provide a solid plan for the business, and for us too as a couple. Q: So can I tell a cute story of how I think that you guys... A: Sure Q: Okay. So there on the east coast for most of the year, and I'll call them around 4:00 o' clock in the afternoon, our time still 7:00 in Florida, and they're always cooking dinner together. It's like the cutest thing, it got to the point when I would call them in the afternoon, I'll be like, so what’s for dinner today. A: You know it's true, that is one thing I mean, we do when we are at home, and we're not travelling, it's really important to us, we're in a, you know really trying to be healthy, and exercise every morning. And that's like where that time scheduling, like we have it scheduled for workout everymorning, and you know these things, and cooking dinner, and on Sunday like getting meal prep, and so then it makes you more organized cause you're not wasting time trying to do all that. You know you can be more focused on your business. So we try to, you know, let's say if the, at the latest, 6:30 really turn it off, pour a glass of wine, maybe put friends on, for dinner, something like that. Just for background that it's clear to you Q: Anybody have any questions? Q: Anybody have any questions? A: Yeah. So we did shoot the entire series on contacts, which was like important to me, becauseobviously shooting, moving big wide animals on a medium for that film makes a lot of sense, right. But it's like, all our manual focus on cook plunks, and then the lions are like... Really, oh, so this is a good experiment to see what happens, I don't think anyone has done this before, but we survived. And the wildlife were surprisingly okay with the organic cook plunks, so, it was 350. It's a really big lens, I have the shoot auto-model part, you cannot possible hand-hold it. Yeah, with the 120 back. Q: The detail in some of the shorts is amazing, like the ability to see the hair, on like the elephant, it's like crazy. It's good stuff. A: Yeah. It's really fun. And that's really just more than anything else, I hoped that by the time we got to Africa we can really actually do it, but it really was an experiment, like can we do this, I don't know, let's try. We shot quite a bit, but we, for the most part, it was fun to see what you could do with it, and so same thing, it's really that, I shoot a lot of horses with that as well. It's a fun way to play with that kind of contacts. Q: How do you travel with all of that equipment? A: We're pretty good, we have this old pelican ladies bags, years ago, that they're like subsided, they're the only bags you find that can go underneath the seat of those teeny tiny planes, like when you go to Islands, and they're like give me your carry bag, and you're like no it fits. And it's the only one that goes, and then we get to lots of flights at times, so we have two of those, and they fit surprising amount all our camera gear, so that goes with us carry-on, so just two of those, and then we've got one bag, one big suitcase that the light bag, all of these gets checked, so worse case if that got delayed, we could still shoot and do everything. But we're always kind of editing, I mean we've got tripods, we're not the lightest travellers, but I'm also a really, and we shoot both film and digital, so now we have like three contacts that we're travelling with, cause we gotta have a backup, and we also have our digital bodies and all the lighting and everything like that. So, and I'm a big maybe worry-worth, so I always have backups for the backups. You know once you get in an Island in the middle of nowhere, or anything like that, the last thing you wanna do is go, oh, I need some photo equipment. So, we always like to be prepared. Q: So how did you come up with the idea for the final print shop. Not only that elephant stuff, but you've shot some really cool destination stuff that I've seen, and that we helped you prepare and all that. A: Well, the main focus. We did a lot of travel stuff, and I think a lot of us, as you travel you just shoot a lot, and it just goes and sits on a hard drive, and it's kind of nice to dust it off and do something with it. And I've also loved photographing courses for a long time, so, just, kind of bringing those passion projects and then it gave me an excuse to go and shoot more personal work which I think is important. So anything that can really inspire you to kind of give yourself an assignment in a way and just do it for your own creativity; it's gonna make your work look better. Q: Is the print shop actually profitable for you? A: Of course. Like we're here to talk about business, and I think the cool thing with it is that you don't have to do much to get a set-up. So we kind of launched it into our website revamp. So theoretically, it was a lot of time. That's what we really didn't really, that we didn't really, so if we look at returning time as of right now, that's definitely not. And that's definite you know I'll be very honest; you got to rescan things and stuff like that. And at this point, it’s more of a long term thing; we just launched it like two months ago. So with anything like that, the next thing is oh, we've already got the images, and they're just kind of sitting there. If you can get up a website, something like a page that's less expensive then wait. Then there's not a heavy investment of going and doing that. But, the, what we're also trying to do, is you know, passive income. If there's anything that you can do that doesn't require you to get up and go somewhere and do something. And that's really kind of what we're working into, more of our long-term plan. Its things like that, that it's great when a print sale comes in, and you can go okay order; and out the door and that's nice to see. And there's lots of different ways to do this. A: So when I, apparently you guys want to do it, he pretty knows how to do it. Like he tells us what to do now. Q: You should thank her if you guys put up a print shop, and everything goes on smoothly. A: Yeah. No. I mean yeah, I'll be happy to give anybody advice on things like that; I think the biggest thing is trying to figure out how to do it, that's not a big-time stack, or financial investment. So, it's always what we're trying to do as well. Q: So, my question is how do you get your digital to a place where you are happy with it? A: So, this is a big turning point for me this year too, because I was always super frustrated by any digital, like it would literally make me mad, like as I'm doing it, like this is really not making me happy as I'm scrolling through it. And I think I even did this with my Instagram this year, just like a letting go of that, just really being just like it is what it is, you know. I mean like some point you just need to like stop overthinking it, and go like it is what it is. Like those pictures that you're probably doing with it, like I shoot family photos, both film and digital, and then I do party pictures, we do you know once they're like the groomsmen are doing cake stands; time to bring out the digital camera, just saying, then at that point, like, it's a party picture. You know, so get some street lights, have the party lights, and everything like that. But really don't spend hours fussing with it. I just really, I just simplified it, and I just like nice work girls, good exposure, then out the door. You know, and I just think don't overthink it. Q: So you have any advice on working with wedding planners. A: Yeah. You know it's really an investment, and I know like the last thing you wanna hear is like I've gotta like invest more time and energy in it. But I think once again, if you can sit back and look at what is the goal, of where I wanna take, what is your ideal client, who is planning that wedding. You know, if you really know who that client is, and really where you wanna take your thing, it would help narrow down, you know you don't wanna reach out to the random top planners, to the top planners of your ideal client. So that night, that's totally gonna be different for me than it is for you, or you know who’s is, and you know anybody else. So really, if you can start back at the beginning of that vision and that strategy, and then take that all the way through, then once you figure out who those people are. So first narrowing down who those people really are, are they, should shooting, are they playing in your area. And then, I mean just reach out to them, be that annoying person. Send them you know, I always do like holiday cards, and I've done lookbooks, I've done different things, you know offer, offer them some values, so, even for me, and I know people hear this all the time, but I think they'll need to hear it again. In so many emails we use this, oh, well yeah, I'm getting into weddings, and I'd really like to shoot for you, and you know, I'm gonna do this, and I'm hoping it'd be like a fashion blah, blah, blah. Yeah, it makes sense when you're typing it out. I'm totally sure that somebody knows too. Instead of like you're flipping, you can like, you know that I really feel like I'm a hard worker and I'm gonna add a lot of value to your team. And I'm really good at wedding film fast, and I'd love to just bring some fresh energetic energy to your thing. So same thing for the wedding planner, reaching out, and you're kind of going what value will I add, and maybe that's a clever issue, you know I've noticed you got some employees on your team, and you know I'd love to if you're interested just come and do some headshots for you guys, or anything like that. Like provide essential value. So just being creative in that sense, that maybe, can do something fine, something that they're interested in, and really trying to connect to them in a creative way. Q: So how did you break into destination weddings, and start getting that kind of business? A: Yeah. And I think that, you know like it's all gonna go back to the same thing, like if you say that's really what you wanna do, and that’s like what you want, like your end game is to be travelling and to be doing all those things; then, looking at, okay well, first if you can kind of fake it till you make it. So that's one of the first editorials that I did was in the keys, and it was like this place that I've always worked with fashion models, that, and it was like this girl, and I would use models, and they're always looking for us to test with models, so, I had it like on a rock, it was my barley inspired shoot, and using the keys, it wasn't a barley, it looks kind of like it was. And, so, then that like, that kind of old setting, and then... and being smart, I mean if you don't like websites and SEO, and anything like that; then a friend who does, and you guys trade each other for whatever you are good at cause that stuff is so important then. I’m like need deep in Google analytics, like I also want to launch a new website, like all these long key stuff happens, like you get bounces on weird things, and your SEO firm, taking your blog from five years of archives, and moving it… all these weird things happen, and you have to like dig deep into the numbers side of it, and I think your destination especially, you gotta get that hit, that hit of kind of showing, that Paris wedding, or wherever it is you wanna be. So that's no 1. And when you're traveling, if you go somewhere, if you go on vacation, like, be intentional about it. Like go, like, we're not going to I don’t know where you wanna go, New York City, we're going to go to Huawei, and learn there, do all these cool stuff, and do a shoot. And maybe Instagramming it, like showing, like I'm in Huawei, I'm here all the time. You know what I mean (laughs) And you're like, you can really kind of fake it till you make it. And just, if you're really kind of conscious about doing that, over and over and over, it'll work. Q: So the question is like the, we’ll use the elephants as an example, but the animals conservatory, is that you thought about, did they reach out to you, how did that go about? A: Yeah. It kind of ties in back to the wedding planner question, cause that was very same thing. All of a sudden I'm like it's square one. Nobody knows who I am, I have never taken pictures of wild animals, ever. And I'm like please let me come to Africa, and take pictures of your animals. Like, please. Of course, they were like don't understand your email. And then I send like five more, and then I find like three other people that are listening there, and I started emailing them, then I actually started calling and then I'm like no it's a really good idea, and then they said no. And then I found like another person, and I got in their ear, and they're like hmm, that's really going to be a good idea. So, just really, I was annoyingly persistent, and I'm really like good at being stubborn, and in that way very, very persistent, and it pays off in things like that. Like when people tell me no, it kind of inspires me more. Q: Why did you decide to shoot that in film, or on film? A: Just seemed like I have to do it. And it, and I think there is something, maybe it is the dual film altogether, I think there is something true about it, and, maybe that's why we love it so much with weddings. You can't really force it up that much, you know, we see a lot of, even with wild life survey, a lot of it is really digitized, high contrast, it almost looks like all of a sudden they're like in the studio. And they're like, were you really there, like, it's just so far removed from what that animal is, and I think that even the people that I am shooting at a wedding, or while I am shooting a wild animal, I really want their soul to kind of come through there, and I really like kind of capture everything about that. And to me that's just doing them justice, and I think the same thing with a bride or anything like that. I don't wanna make her like this Barbie that looks good in the picture, but in real life she's like not, like, I really wanna capture the best side of it all, but have it being real. So film seems like the only choice for that. Q: You stole my question. But basically, do you, Good question by the way. Do you and Chad see all the business changing for you in five (5) or ten (10). A: Yeah. I mean definitely all this stuff about what I'm preaching, will definitely sit down and trying to figure out where we're gonna be in five (5) years, and where we wanna be in ten (10) years. And really it's like my word is intentional, for this year, it's really about being intentional. I want every project that we're doing to really be something that we're excited about, and in spite of it's also working to get us to that end goal, and for us, that's absolutely destination weddings, and you know these multi-day adventurous experiences that people are taking along their closest family and friends for, and you know this work, we're kind of travelling couples that have a high attention that we do, we definitely wanna keep on doing those, but less. So, we can really focus on that. So instead of maybe doing 20 more weddings in a year you know in instead of maybe doing twenty five (25) weddings in five years, you know it's fifteen (15). That would be really cool. And we wanna be doing more conservational thing, doing more of that as well, and so that's kind of our trajectory of where we're trying to take it, and to be having a bit more time for life. So that's where we are really focusing our energies, and to learning how to be more efficient people, being more productive and just have more time for all those other things that for the last of years, we hadn't had a lot of time for. Q: So my question is gonna be all deep, like when I saw you earlier this week, like, where do you see yourself in five (5) years. A: I'm going to be treating 15 weddings on that branch, with foster puppies everywhere. Q: So the question is how do you shape the reception, or how do you like the reception. A: Yeah. So like I said, we always travel with a lot of, we travel speed lights, we travel quantum’s, so I've got, I'm always like a lot of bodies on, so I'll shoot a reception with a contrast, and we'll have a video light for that, for what I'm shooting, first dance, cake cutting like that, but then I also want to balance that with colour, and everything too. So, I'll have my digital body and the pocket wizard attached to the quantum for that, to kind of give that other look with that going up, and I also have a 35mm black and white film, and that one is just gonna have to flash on it, so I kind of is just straight, so I like it for the wide angle. For the most part, that's kind of the main thing. It's pretty simple; it's easy to travel. Just the quantum, the on-camera speed lights, and the video light for when we're doing cake-cutting and first dance. Q: With the contacts, when you're shooting at the reception what flashlight are you using? A: Just video light for that one. Yep. Yeah. So I'll have someone hold that one, yeah, and normally we're trying, normally it's just short night. 99% the stuff we're doing and we're kind of getting towards now, let's bring in the third for a lot of things, but normally it's just the two of us, and we're, we've worked together so long now, and that's the only other thing that I can say is like, if you don't have a child, like go find one. You know find one, next yeah I'll be selling prototypes, and yeah, you know, find somebody that works with you consistently, because you really need that support, and you need somebody that knows, like when you go to a place, they like know exactly what you are saying, and then you go like cut the video right, and he's like where do we go. Cause it's like he'll be shooting as well, so if I'm shooting the contrast, he'll also be shooting a digital, like, with a longer lens, and you know, you really wanna like, you know, just not give like a tight photo, and I really wanna give them that diversity, and so I feel like we can do that together, so if you can have a good second shooter, a good assistant will really helping you to execute that; it's gonna make it a lot easier, so he’ll kind of go back and forth with that video ... Q: True. So what advice would you give to get a husband, or it could be anybody that’s on your team up to speed, if they're not a formally trained photographer? A: Yeah. So we actually started; how Chad started shooting it wasn't ever like oh, least think you should, I wanted a photographer, like oh I'll shoot for you on the weekends when I could be watching football. And he was definitely like no.But we actually, our dog, actually, so I used to do jolly with him, like we went around and jump strums, and some tubes, and so I kindof at the time, put a digital, the long lens in the sand, gave him my three minute crash course, and like said getit and focus, and I'm like running with the dog and jumping. I got a lot of pictures back there and they were actually sharp, and there's some pain involved, and I was like hmmm. So I kind of got the idea, and what I is, for the first .external weddings that we did, I mean you can do this as some exercise, have a second shooter. That is, your friend, and just put on, put the camera and totally everything manual of course, and really be like just come and shoot and just do it. And I think the sooner they can just rip off that bandage, do it the right way, and not have pressure on them too, like don't expect anything out of it, just say, just start doing it, practice, practice, practice, practice, and then when anything good does comes out of it. Like sit down and have that review together and go like this, whatever this was, that worked.
