156. Closer to Truth Host, Dr. Robert Kuhn, Skeptical of Near-Death Experience Science

Summary: Interview with Dr. Robert Kuhn reveals why he’s reluctant to accept evidence for near-death experience (NDE) science. Join Skeptiko host Alex Tsakiris for an interview with Dr. Robert Kuhn, host of popular television show Closer to Truth.  During the interview Kuhn discusses the evidence for survival of consciousness after death: Alex Tsakiris: Let’s talk about survival of consciousness a little bit -- life after death -- and in particular near-death experience research. It’s a topic we’ve covered a lot on this show.  If there’s consciousness with no brain, then the mind/body debate is really over. Why isn’t this an area you’ve dug into? Dr. Robert Kuhn: That’s a legitimate question and obviously we’ve touched on it because we do deal with life after death in terms of the religious expressions of it. So that’s something I can focus on, because it’s not a question of physical fact as NDE would be, which I am very skeptical of. Alex Tsakiris: Who would be someone you would point to as being an NDE skeptic? Dr. Robert Kuhn: To me, the number of people would be legion. The burden of proof is on the other side. Alex Tsakiris: The burden of proof of what? The NDE evidence is pretty clear.  For example when they’ve studied this in the cardiac ward they know there’s no brain electrical activity and yet there’s this conscious NDE experience. I mean, that’s really the crux of the mind/body issue. Dr. Robert Kuhn: I would find that not compelling at all if that’s the evidence. Alex Tsakiris: What do you mean? Dr. Robert Kuhn: I personally believe that there is more likely than not a need for something beyond the material world as we understand it today to explain consciousness and mind. I would not, though, use as evidence for that the existence of the NDE. Closer to Truth Website Play It: Download MP3 (41:00 min.) Read It: Alex Tsakiris: Let’s talk about survival a little bit. Life after death. It’s a topic we’ve covered a lot on this show because the evidence for it really cuts to the core of this argument we’ve just been talking about. If there’s consciousness when there’s no brain, then it’s really debate over. And that, of course, brings… Dr. Robert Kuhn: Well, I don’t necessarily agree with that but to be very rigorous in the analysis it does not follow that if there is more to consciousness than the brain, it does not follow that there has to be a guaranteed life after death. It can follow; it is not excluded, of course. It is a fact in that direction… Alex Tsakiris: Let me be clear. What I was saying is that if there’s consciousness with no brain, then the mind/body debate is really over because you don’t have a body anymore and you do still have a mind. That debate is over. I agree with you; survival of a personal consciousness that exists, reincarnation and all the rest, is a whole other leap as you said that requires some gaps. But I think the topic that we’ve dug into because it directly addresses these issues is the near-death experience. I was very interested to read a blog post of yours titled, “Is There Life After Death?” If I can, I want to read you a quote from that and chat about it a little bit. You say, “As for NDEs, I’ve never given the claims credence. They seem more like stress-induced brain physiology caused by lack of oxygen or other such chemical insults or trauma brought about by whatever has caused the near-death in the first place.” Tell me about that because I’ve got to tell you, I’ve interviewed some of the world’s leading NDE researchers, physicians, researchers at leading universities, and boy, none of them are saying that. It seems to me like all the evidence points in the other direction. So tell me what you’re thinking there. Dr. Robert Kuhn: Well, I don’t claim to be an expert. I’ve not done any personal research myself, but from what I’ve observed and from my knowledge of brain science in general,