Summary: KMO talks first with James Howard Kunstler about his new novel, World Made By Hand. Next he speaks with Dmitry Orlov about the 5 stages of collapse and about his book, Reinventing Collapse: The Soviet Example and American Prospects, which has just been released. KMO closes the podcast with a reading on the difference between "breakdown" and "collapse" from Thomas Homer-Dixon's excellent book, The Upside of Down: Catastrophe, Creativity, and the Renewal of Civilization. Dmitry Orlov mentioned two books during our conversation which figured prominently in the formation of his thoughts on collapse: The Mountain People by Colin M. Turnbull The Collapse of Complex Societies by Joseph Tainter
