Skeptiko – Science at the Tipping Point

Steve Briggs taught advanced meditation all over the world and learned yogic out of body travel. photo by: Skeptiko Alex Tsakiris: [Dogon tribal music plays] You are listening to music of the Dogon people, and for me it’s pretty hard to listen to. But the point of playing music from this small ancient tribe in West Africa is that the Dogon pose an interesting dilemma for those of us who want to move from our knowns, our comfortable sciency, archeological, history they teach us in school, to the kind of reality extended reality we explore so much on this show. The Dogon, like many ancient people, have always claimed that their ancestors came from the stars. It’s an ancient alien kind of thing. But what’s unique about the Dogon and the way that they relate to today’s guest is that when the Dogon first encountered Western anthropologists in the 1830s, they told them some specific information that they were given by their star brother ancestors. In particular, they told anthropologists that they were from the Sirian star system, a star which is one of the brightest stars in the sky, so bright, in fact they said it obscured a smaller dwarf star circling around the visible star. But in the 1830s this was impossible to see, even with the telescopes of the time. In fact, it wasn’t visible until the telescope technology of 1970, when astronomers looked and were able to confirm there is a twin star around Sirius. But the Dogon had more to say, much more. They correctly said that the orbital of the dwarf star was 50 years and that there were three planets that would show up and they had specific information about the density of these planets and the rotation and other information that would be impossible, it would seem, for an ancient culture without a written language, to know about. But again, the question for me is, how do we go from the known to the unknown? Today’s guest, Steve Briggs, is going to take you from his known world of a tennis prodigy and an MBA and someone who got interested in meditation, who went all around the world teaching transcendental meditation to in India, Europe and the United States, to someone who’s had some amazing encounters with individuals that transcend our normal conscious reality. Alex Tsakiris: Let me approach this from another angle, because in the email you wrote to me, which maybe will jump us into these amazing experiences that you have, because I feel like we’re still nibbling on the outside. You write: “Tibetan lamas voluntarily lock themselves into lightless underground cells for up to three years.” This is what you discovered from a guy who’s been there, been to India, has met with these people, has enough of a credibility, in terms of what you’ve done in your own spiritual journey, to talk to these people on this level and to learn this stuff. I’m returning to your email: “This would drive the average person insane, but the purpose of the incarceration is, among other things, to develop the ability to soul travel. Once the lama learns to leave the body at will, he can travel throughout the cosmos, his physical incarnation is no longer a limitation. I have been taught these methods and use them.” (later) Steve Briggs: Hopefully, my purpose has been served in having these out-of-body experiences because I have chosen to direct where I go, to places where I have received more advanced training, a chance to be closer to divinity. One of the groups that I have been, like I say, fortunate enough, I’ve interacted with and learned from are a group from, the Sirians. Not the Syrians of the Middle East,

Mark Booth’s view of our secret history looks way beyond churchy Christianity. photo by: Skeptiko Alex Tsakiris: Today we welcome Mark Booth to Skeptiko. Mark is probably best known as the author of The Secret History of the World, an international bestseller from 2008, that really changed the way we think and talk about esoteric wisdom, secret societies, mystery schools, and it was also a book, I think, that has played a part in weakening the grip of this kind of soul-crushing, scientific materialism that we talk about so much on this show. Mark, it’s great to have you here, thank so much for joining me. Mark Booth: I’m so pleased to be on your show, I admire it enormously and I admire your cast of mind. You’re curious about everything, but you don’t want to be stupid, and I think, if there is a God, he doesn’t want us to be stupid. So, that’s a very sensible attitude to take. Alex Tsakiris: Right-on to that, and in that spirit, I really want to have, what I like to call a level-3 kind of discussion here because level-1 is, as our culture would say, “Why would you listen to Mark Booth? I mean, that’s just ridiculous, don’t even pay any attention.” Then, level-2 is the people who just admire and so greatly are inspired by your work, as they should be, and say, “Yes, we must believe everything that Mark says.” Then, it’s level-3, that we don’t have enough of, where it says, “Gee, this a wonderful dialogue to engage in.” Here is someone I truly believe is a hero, to have stepped forward and fought these tremendous cultural forces that you just have stacked yourself against, but let’s dig into it a little bit further. That’s my speech, that’s where we’re going to go, so if any time you think I’m poking you too hard, let me know. We need to have that next level of discussion. (continued below)   Click here for forum discussion Click here for Mark’s website https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1gyKhsle-8 Read Excerpts Start 35:59 Alex Tsakiris: So, there’s all of these different viewpoints about this extended consciousness, which is again this level-3, getting past the idiocy of the Neil deGrasse Tyson, Joe Rogan, “Oh, it’s all bullshit,” kind of thing. Then, kind of looking at it more deeply, I just don’t see where Christianity, for the most part, in the general sense, is willing to embrace that in a way of saying, “Okay, let’s look at all of that stuff and try and make it make sense to us,” in terms of answering the questions about how we should live our lives, you know? Mark Booth: I think if you’re saying that you would expect to find answers to questions about LSD experience and after-death experiences in the bible, that’s a little unfair. I think that really, Christianity is part of an evolving dialogue, which involves the other religions and the other mystical tradition...

Jan Van Ysslestyne is the foremost expert on  classical shamanism of the Ulichi. photo by: Skeptiko Alex Tsakiris: Today we welcome Jan van Ysslestyne to Skeptiko. Jan has written a very impressive new book titled Spirits from the Edge of the World and she’s here to join me in a conversation about shamanism and all sorts of related good stuff. Jan, we’re doing a take two of this interview, we did a little audio change here, but thanks again, so much, for joining me on Skeptiko. Jan van Ysslestyne: Thank you so very much, it’s a pleasure to be here. Alex Tsakiris: This is a really interesting topic and you were so generous to contact me you said, “Alex, I think we should talk about this amazing work I’ve done with this group of people, these native people in this remote area of Siberia and they’re the Ulchi people.” And as we were just chatting a minute ago, they are really the original shamanistic culture, that is where the name, the origin of the word shamanism comes from, these and the surrounding culture, right? Jan van Ysslestyne: Correct, yes. Alex Tsakiris: So, you’ve done this incredible deep dive into the work and I have to tell people that the book is really great, very well written, nicely compiled, and then I go to your website, it’s absolutely beautiful. You have these beautiful infographics with all of these teachers from the tribe and you have them laid out in their lineage and you have some great audio and video that you’ve collected. So, I guess the place to start again is to give folks a sense of how you came to study these people and what the process was like. You just told me it’s taken you a number of years, you’ve had these folks come and visit you for over ten years and you’ve learned their language. Tell us the whole story, if you would. (continued below) Click here for forum discussion Click here for Jan’s website Read Excerpts Start 00:11:52 Alex Tsakiris: The main thing that I wanted to talk about, because I don’t care about the Ulchi, I’ve never going to meet the Ulchi, I care, only in the sense of what they can inform, in terms of all of my other kinds of things, and all of these competing ideas we have about this extended consciousness reality, right? So, the Ulchi say one thing, the NDEs say another thing, the ET says another thing, the astral traveler say another thing. I mean, are we looking at just a different cultural overlay, it’s the map versus the territory thing? How do we figure that out? Jan van Ysslestyne: Well, I don’t think so. My concern was a lot of people go specifically into this field, is that they go and gather up all of this data and they come back, and they translate what they think that they’ve observed from a very mechanistic, linear, reductionistic, Western approach, and I think that’s kind of putting the cart before the horse. Personally, to really understand another culture, you have to liberate yourself from your own culture as best as possible and you have to go into another culture and know that you know nothing, you know nothing John Snow, you’re completely ignorant. You need to learn to think in a different way. Alex Tsakiris: Why? Let me challenge that in a Skeptiko way. This is, kind of, the shut up and calculate model alternative. So,

John Brisson on how to regain health by fixing your gut. photo by: Skeptiko Alex Tsakiris: Today we welcome John Brisson to Skeptiko. John is the author of Fix Your Gut: The Definitive Guide to Digestive Disorders and although that might not seem like a natural fit with some of the topics we cover here on Skeptiko, I can tell you that after listening to many hours of interviews with John, reading his excellent book and even hiring to do a consult with a member of my family… I can tell you you’re in for a treat.  John Brisson: Thank you for having me Alex. I’m a huge fan of the show, I love what you do at Skeptiko. I’ve enjoyed many of your interviews, especially when you ask the tough questions like asking Jim Marrs point blank if he was a Scientologist. —- Alex Tsakiris: Dr. Andrew Weil… [taught] medical his students (paraphrasing), “Go to the library and look at any major study of a life-threatening illness, and look for cases of spontaneous healing… you’ll find them under the category of ‘placebo affect’ or whatever, but in every one of those studies you’ll find spontaneous healing.” Well, what are we saying there? We don’t understand what the hell happened. These are people in the control group who didn’t get any treatment, who weren’t supposed to get any better, who got better. So, it’s holding these two things at the same time, because John… I’m doing all of this stuff to improve my chances for experiencing the best life I can, at the same time, I’m humbled by the thought of, “who am I really” and what is my larger connection to consciousness, what is my larger spirituality?  John Brisson: I agree, that’s why I’m not 100% for things that can be explained logically and I’m not 100% for things that are strictly spiritual either. I’m kind of a mixture in the middle and some people hate that. “With a lot of my beliefs I’m kind of thinking both sides are necessary. (continued below) Click here for forum discussion Click here for John’s website Read Excerpts John Brisson: I went to college, I kind of shifted a little bit. I thought about maybe going for biology at one point, maybe going for Nursing School at FTCC. Neither one of those things ended up panning out and I just worked odd jobs here and there. One time actually, you might find this interesting, I worked as a role player for the United States government, dressing up as an Arab, which was a very, very interesting job. But eventually I got sick. Even though I had asthma, I had a lot of health issues, my appendix burst when I was 14 and I ended up being in the hospital for a month and I’d almost failed eighth grade. 00:59:01 Alex Tsakiris: Andrew Weil has gone on to become one of the most famous complimentary medicine guys and has, kind of, turned that into a whole huge industry for himself and for other people and he seems like...

Evan Carmichael has channeled his success into a passion for helping entrepreneurs. photo by: Skeptiko Alex Tsakiris: Today we welcome Evan Carmichael to Skeptiko. Evan is a successful entrepreneur who’s channeled his own success into a passion for helping others succeed in reaching their potential. He’s created an enormously successful YouTube channel and two excellent books. I really enjoy, Your One Word: The Powerful Secret of Creating a Business and Life That Matter and The Top 10 Rules for Success. Evan, welcome to Skeptiko. Thanks for joining me. Evan Carmichael: Thanks a lot Alex, and that voice, man, I should have had you do my audio book. That’s something special. Alex Tsakiris: Really? I just drank a smoothie, maybe that’s it. Evan Carmichael: Yeah, keep it. Yeah, keep the smoothie. Alex Tsakiris: So, you were just joking a minute ago, Skeptiko is generally a show about consciousness science… these “who we are, why are we here” big picture stuff, but in some ways that’s really just a cover story because what I’m really interested in is truth-seeking and truth-seekers and I think there’s a wonderful overlap with the stuff you’ve done about believing and about entrepreneurship. I was wondering if we could talk about that connection. So, right off the bat, do you see a connection between truth-seeking and this believing/entrepreneurship/reaching your full potential? Evan Carmichael: Yeah. I think everybody has Michael Jordan level talent at something, but we just done, one, realize what it is, we don’t try enough stuff, or two, we don’t believe in ourselves to go after it. I think the question of human potential is the world’s biggest problem. I think something like cancer should have been solved already. I think the woman who solves cancer is an accountant right now and hates her life, but she either, one, never tried biology, never got interested in it, never got the opportunity or she went after it but then it seemed to risky, it was a safe bet, somebody talked her down from it and she took the safer path to go and be an accountant. So, I think that’s everybody. I think Michael Jordan is just as talented as everybody else. I think we all have that ability inside of us and so that’s the path that I’m on, is trying to help people uncover that. Whether they become an entrepreneur or something totally different, that’s okay, but I think everybody has a well, a deep well of talent inside them and are meant for greatness. (continued below) Click here for forum discussion Click here for Evan’s website Read Excerpts: Alex Tsakiris: Awesome. I don’t know if that really gets at the truth seeking thing, but that was so beautiful,

Jasun Horsley examines the intersection of social engineering and spirituality. photo by: Skeptiko Alex Tsakiris: Today we welcome Jasun Horsley to Skeptiko. Jasun is the author of several books, including, Prisoner of Infinity (Prisoner of Infinity: Social Engineering, UFOs, and the Psychology of Fragmentation). He’s also the creator of the extremely interesting AUTICULTURE blog and the Liminalist podcast, again, playing around with this idea of multiple realities. Jasun Horsley: …there’s something very real that has been co-opted, has been redirected by groups and agencies in different programs for various different reasons. One being, of course, just to exploit it, the spiritual potential of the psyche, or psychic potential of the human body, that has all kinds of uses, it can be weaponized, but also to anticipate, if there is this potential within us as human beings, that enables us to discover true autonomy, the true experience of ourselves and our nature within creation, like you said at the beginning, “Who are we, and why are we here?” To really uncover that answer, as individuals, would make us beyond the reach of any kind of control or manipulation or exploitation. (continued below) Click here for forum discussion Click here for Jasun’s website Read Excerpts: Start 00:18:50 (after intro) Jasun Horsley: What Prisoner Infinity addresses, is to what extent has a narrative actually been cynically manufactured to superimpose on top of a reality that simply can’t be reduced? But we will go along with that, we will conspire unconsciously and become complicit with the reduction of an experience and an encounter that is trying to pull us out of the prisoner of our illusory identity selves and introduce us to a greater reality. Alex Tsakiris: You know what Jasun, let me interject something, because that’s a fantastic point, that socio-spiritual engineering, but I have to tell you, that came through even stronger for me in the non-UFO stuff. Now, I don’t know if we want to jump into that now, but like the examples in the co-opting of the New Age movement is kind of an example. I don’t know if you’re totally comfortable with the parallels, but the methods for socio-spiritual, which is what you’re adding to it, the spiritual, the socio-spiritual engineering, are all over the place. It’s almost like they have the playbook, they bring it out, they just kind of run the plays, find out which ones work, and they kind of do it again and again. To me, and this is my read of it, I maybe jumping ahead, but it doesn’t matter if it’s ET or if it’s New Age or if it’s psychedelics, same shit. You know, Gloria Steinem, women’s movement, “Oh no, we know how to do that.” Gloria Steinem, outed as CIA, lifetime actor, and then when she’s outed she comes out and says, “Oh yeah, but I did it because I had to help the women who really lived for the cause, it’s the only way to do it.” Again,

Tim Freke and Richard Cox join me for a freewheeling talk about stuff they usually don’t discuss. photo by: Skeptiko Alex Tsakiris: Today we welcome Tim Freke and Richard Cox back to Skeptiko for what I hope will be entertaining freewheeling dialogue about all sorts of stuff that I’ve cooked up. Tim Freke is, of course, a bestselling author, an acclaimed international speaker, as well as a “standup philosopher” with a deep love for deep truth, which I share with him, and it’s just always drawn me to Tim’s fantastic work. I consider him a friend and a colleague and he’s always great to connect with. I’m very glad to have him on today. Richard Cox is the co-host of Tim’s podcast and he’s created just a really good podcast of his own called Deep State Consciousness Podcast and I’ve really enjoyed talking to Richard over the last year or so and diving into his world and some of the podcasts that he’s gotten into, that seem to have a great synergy and crossover with a lot of the stuff that I’ve done here on Skeptiko. So, both of you, Tim and Richard, this is going to be so fun. Thanks for joining me. (continued below) Click here for forum discussion Click here for Tim’s website Click here for Richard’s Deep State Consciousness Podcast   Read Excerpts: Start 00:12:58 Tim Freke: The thing which unites and divides science and spirituality is science reaches out into the object and goes, “What is it?” and spirituality reaches back into the subject and goes, “Who am I?” So, if you reach back into the subject and go, “Who am I?” you eventually find the ground of consciousness, so then that’s the ground. Whereas, if you reach out into the object you find an objective ground. We thought it was material, it turns out it’s not, it’s energetic or informational. But, that’s the paradox, that’s the paradoxity of those two things. The question is, is either actually the ground, because it looks to me, now we have this evolutionary understanding which our ancestors didn’t have, that it’s harder for us then to go that consciousness is the ground of reality because it looks like, very strongly, that consciousness, this ability to know that you exist, is an emergent quality. It wasn’t there for the first 10 billion years at least. Alex Tsakiris: Why would you say that, what evidence do you have for that? Tim Freke: That’s it’s an emergent…? Well, I would say the opposite. There is evidence that it has emerged with life, because we don’t find it in other things, not consciousness, not the knowledge that we exist. Therefore, the idea that it’s the constant ground is an assumption and we’d have to go, what you’ve done then is you’ve taken this idea, which is essentially a God idea, and you’ve plonked it at the beginning in the same way that people have been plonking at the beginning forever and going, “We just assume that’s there.” What I think we can do is see it in a different way. So,

Al From Forum Borealis joins me for a  conversation about technology and consciousness. photo by: Skeptiko (machine generated transcript… very hit or miss :)) 0:00 – 0:07 on this episode of Skeptiko oh I think 0:03 – 0:10 the shaman thing may be wrong they may 0:07 – 0:15 be looking at a very underdeveloped 0:10 – 0:17 sense of manipulating aspects of 0:15 – 0:19 consciousness when we look at ancient 0:17 – 0:20 agriculture we say wow they did pretty 0:19 – 0:22 good they had that little stick and they 0:20 – 0:25 drove it in the ground and then they 0:22 – 0:27 stuck a fishin in the with every corn 0:25 – 0:31 seed and it grew hey good for them right 0:27 – 0:34 now we get a hundred times that by doing 0:31 – 0:36 all this kind of manipulation some of it 0:34 – 0:38 good some of it bad but we figured out 0:36 – 0:40 how to do that at a whole different 0:38 – 0:42 level oh I think we’re under impressed 0:40 – 0:44 of course there’s something you fail to 0:42 – 0:47 see in that reasoning look they were 0:44 – 0:48 having archaea consciousness or magical 0:47 – 0:50 mythical depends when we’re talking 0:48 – 0:52 about so that means that they were 0:50 – 0:55 dealing with the same things but they 0:52 – 0:58 were expressing and experiencing 0:55 – 0:60 differently look I said people had a 0:58 – 1:02 different kind of consciousness before 0:60 – 1:05 that means that what they perceive it 1:02 – 1:08 was also different people in nature like 1:05 – 1:11 Oz Norwegians we know the wages are very 1:08 – 1:13 artistic or I should say agnostic we’re 1:11 – 1:17 probably the most secular one of the 1:13 – 1:19 most secular in the world right now but 1:17 – 1:21 all the Weejun when they go to the 1:19 – 1:25 mountains when they go to the forests 1:21 – 1:28 they become extremely humble and they 1:25 – 1:30 connect with something now we prefer the 1:28 – 1:32 technical way to explain it rather than 1:30 – 1:34 the mythical because we lost from that 1:32 – 1:38 part of consciousness but it’s still 1:34 – 1:42 there and we still know about it I’m 1:38 – 1:46 leaning towards the idea that the 1:42 – 1:50 consciousness soul connection is not 1:46 – 1:53 what we think it is it’s not as special 1:50 – 1:58 it’s not as unique it’s more malleable 1:53 – 2:00 than maybe we’ve thought stay with us 1:58 – 2:08 for skeptiko 2:00 – 2:12 [Music] (continued below) Click here for forum discussion Click here for Al’s Forum Borealis website Read Excerpts:

Forum Borealis is a podcast unafraid to tackle the big picture questions of life, consciousness and conspiracy. photo by: Skeptiko Alex Tsakiris: Today we welcome Al Borealis to Skeptiko. Borealis isn’t his real name but that’s part of the stealthy imagine that he’s created. Al is the creator and host of the very excellent Forum Borealis podcast, a podcast that seeks to bust all sorts of paradigms, be they scientific, political, religious, historical, conspiratorial, all of them and any of them. What’s really unique and special about Al is the way he goes about that and what his show is all about, and that’s what I really want to get to today in this special coming out party. I’ve actually managed to unmask Al, so you’re listening to this audio but if you want to go up on YouTube, if they allow it on YouTube, you’ll actually see Al on camera. That’s a first, right? Al Borealis: It’s a first, but I didn’t say I didn’t wear a mask. Alex Tsakiris: Yes, do not be fooled. So, just a little bit more. When I say it’s a special show, I mean, where else are you going to give five hours of interview with Peter Levenda on UFO disclosure? I mean, that’s remarkable. Al Borealis: Yeah. Alex Tsakiris: Where else are you going to get six hours or more with Joseph Farrell just on JFK and all of it? I’ve listened to every minute of it, it’s spellbinding. I mean, it’s just fantastic stuff. Al Borealis: Thank you. Alex Tsakiris: And then throw in a couple of hours with the famous 88-year-old, past-lives researcher, Erlendur Haraldsson. I mean, this is just a diverse deep-dive into topics that weave together in a way that listeners to this show will understand, but I think most people are still left on the outside looking in, in terms of wondering how all of that can happen. So, Al, it’s just fantastic. I so love and appreciate your show and I’m really grateful for you joining me today on Skeptiko. (continued below) Click here for forum discussion Click here for Al’s Forum Borealis website Read Excerpts: Al Borealis: It’s such an honor to be invited. You know, I told your friend Gordon, I think I came clean about the fact that before we started our own podcast, I didn’t listen to podcasts, too old school, but I did listen to yours. So, it’s pretty cool that I’m on yours then, I’ve been a big fan, as you know. Alex Tsakiris: Well, it’s really cool to have you obviously, and I just want to share, I thought I’d share with people a little bit. I told folks what you’re about, but I want to share a little bit of the vibe that you create at Forum Borealis just by playing a little bit of the intro that you do, so that people can get, just a sense, a feel for what’s going on. This is from the intro to Forum Borealis. Al Borealis: Is it spooky? Alex Tsakiris: It’s interesting. We’ll let it play for a few seconds. Into… Greetings from the North and welcome to Forum Borealis. Alex Tsakiris: That, of course,

Dr. Donald DeGracia, breakthroughs in cell research and a deep understand of the yoga/consciousness link. photo by: Skeptiko I have an interview coming up in just a minute with Dr. Donald DeGracia from Wayne State University School of Medicine. Don is a brilliant guy. His details of his day job are way over my head as he’s doing some very advanced research on stroke victims, and cell death, and he’s received grants from the National Institute of Health grants and all of that good stuff.  And he has a totally different approach to it, a non-linear approach.  But, what you’ll hear in this interview is that none of that stuff really matters much because what Don’s about is something much deeper… it has to do with spirituality, the nature of consciousness and the connection to yoga. Of the hundreds of people that I’ve interviewed, Don is one of my favorites, particularly because you won’t hear about him in a lot of other places. You won’t see a lot of interviews with him, he’s not out there pumping books, he gives his books away for free, and his thinking is just imaginative, unique and he’s not afraid to tell it like it is. So, it’s an interview I really enjoyed doing, I hope you enjoy listening to it. Alex Tsakiris: So, we already told folks you’re there at Wayne State University, in the department of physiology, you’re a professor, but you have this secret life, you have a couple of secret lives, but one of your secret lives is you’re really into comics and you’re wearing your Comic-Con… What t-shirt are you wearing there? Dr. Donald DeGracia: Black Panther. Alex Tsakiris: There we go. Dr. Donald DeGracia: That’s the original Black Panther for all the Black Panther fans out there. Alex Tsakiris: You have comic street cred, you don’t shy away from it, but you also have this other secret life of a yogi, and I think that is so cool and we relate to each other because I’m a yogi, and anyone’s a yogi who says they’re a yogi, you know? I had a guy… Dr. Donald DeGracia: Effectively, yeah. Alex Tsakiris: Yeah, well it’s true. I had a guy on the show recently, and the guy was a total, in my opinion, a total pretender in terms of this, kind of, deeply spiritual, kind of, wise kind of guy. So, we kind of got into it a little bit and I said, “Yeah, I’m a yogi,” and he goes, “What kind of yogi? What’s your heritage, what weekend retreat did you go to?” kind of thing, and it’s like, “No man, yogi is a state of mind. It’s a philosophical shift, anyone can be a yogi,” right? Once you’re a yogi, you’re not a yogi anymore, because it transcends that, but I kind of don’t want to get too… Dr. Donald DeGracia: No, I agree with that completely, yeah, it’s totally a state of mind. Yeah, that’s one of the awkward things about when I talk about yoga, because people ask me what I do, do I practice meditation and things like that. I do Yama and Niyama, that’s what I do, because I’m not advanced enough to do meditation. Alex Tsakiris: Yeah, explain that. Dr. Donald DeGracia: It’s the truth. Alex Tsakiris: That’s awesome. Dr. Donald DeGracia: It’s the truth. Alex Tsakiris: Explain that. Dr. Donald DeGracia: Well,

Mike Clelland has forever changed how we think about owls, ET and extended consciousness. photo by: Skeptiko I have an interview coming up with Mike Clelland. If you don’t recognize the name, but you’ve heard about this thing with UFOs and owls – that’s Mike. He’s written a couple of great books on this topic (The Messengers, Stories from the Messengers) and it’s a fascinating little area to pull apart, in terms of understanding how this extended consciousness stuff merges with this UFO alien abduction stuff. So, we talk all about that and we also talk about the connection between that experience and the near-death experience and other extended consciousness experiences and it was great. I really enjoyed having Mike on the show and I hope you enjoy this interview. Alex Tsakiris: Why do you suppose you were the one chosen to tap into it, or do you believe that you were the one chosen to tap into it? What are your thoughts around that? I mean, Google, ‘owls – UFO’, bam, there’s one guy, you’re the guy. Mike Clelland: Yes. I have pondered, I have no proof of this. So, I have a missing time event in 1974. I don’t have any memories of being onboard a UFO, but, all the stuff around it sure seems like that. Did they like zap me, did they like sit me down in some sort of altered state and say, “In 45 years you will be the guy who answers five emails a day about owls.” So, I’ve wondered that, and it feels like that. I have no proof of it but it kind of feels like that. My life was going one way, boom, it just shot off in a different direction and now I am stuck with this, and I have to say, it is so wildly rewarding. It is so fun to have this small little niche. I keep on thinking, like the high school history teacher, if the student came up and said, “I’m going to write a report on World War II,” the history teacher would say, “Oh, let’s rein that in a little bit.” So, you would kind of go from being in the Pacific, to an island, to one guy, to one boat, to one [unclear 00:03:03], to one afternoon and then you write your report. That’s what it feels like to me. It’s like, “Well, golly, I can write a book about UFOs,” and it’s like, “Don’t go down that road.” But, this tiny little freckle has been so rewarding, and it was out there, and I looked, and I found a lot of them. In a lot of books there’s a paragraph or two about owls. Alex Tsakiris: Well, that’s kind of the point. It was out there, but it wasn’t out there. Mike Clelland: It was whispered, and it had a small… and it was mostly, what would be referred to as the screen memory aspect of the owls, which is a part of the UFO abduction research. It is a small part of it but the more interesting thing to me is people are seeing real owls in these moments. That, to me, is remarkable. (continued below) Click here for forum discussion Click here for Mike’s website Read Excerpts:

YouTube’s Steven Crowder asked, Did Jesus Exist? Joseph Atwill answers. photo by: Skeptiko Today we welcome Joseph Atwill back to Skeptiko. Joe is the author of Caesar’s Messiah, he’s been on this show before, but I invited him back because I ran across this very popular video that asked the question, Did Jesus Exist? The video was published by the popular YouTuber Steven Crowder and I thought it was interesting not just from a Bible-geeky standpoint, but as a way of understanding this new Christian confidence that’s rising in response to satanic/pedo/globalism stuff that’s hung on many liberals these days: Alex Tsakiris: I want to go back to the Steven Crowder thing, so I’m going to play the, We Proselytize Less. Steven Crowder: You know I’m a Christian… I certainly would say, you know, ironically enough, we get a lot of comments from atheists with Alexa. I think I proselytize, we all proselytize far less than the skeptical atheists’ community now. Alex Tsakiris: So, this is a point that I think you and I might have a different of opinion on, but I get what he’s saying. There’s this new force among Christians who have this political chutzpah now, that Jordan Peterson, Dinesh D’Souza, Steven Crowder and I would even throw my friend Rupert Sheldrake in the category of saying, “Yeah, I’m a Christian, so what? It’s not relevant. Listen to what I say and evaluate my opinions on these other topics because I’m right.” I don’t think we’ve seen that in a while and I think when we contrast that with some of the, I’ll use the term ‘libtard’ silliness, there’s a certain traction they get because the left and the liberal point of view has been so exaggerated and has lost any connection with logic or reason, but these Christians are standing tall in comparison. What do you think? Joe Atwill: Well, I think that’s true and I think that there are a lot of Christians that, as you say, stand against globalism, can be seen in some way standing against globalism because they’re trying to retain the culture and religion in the smaller group. They don’t want to sacrifice that, their cohesiveness and their values as globalism is just evaporating all of this stuff and taking it over with this atheistic machine world. But, I would just point out that Christians are actually fairly easy to herd into globalism and that part of globalism is that the slaves seldom know they’re being enslaved, because the controllers are very, very smart. I’ll give one really good example, to show you my point, which is that the first, one of the first globalisms that was ever created was the feudal system, whereby all of the different ethnicities and races, cultures in Europe were globalized and you have basically a monolithic religion that was used to set up the slave state and the religion was Christianity. Christianity was the mind-control device that the oligarchs had at that time to be able to basically set up a system where people wouldn’t rebel because they believed that there would be this workers’ paradise, that they just believed the representative of the Pontiff Maximus, the Pope, who was just obviously a mask for the ruling families. (continued below)

Jason Louv has a reputation as a chaos magician, but he’s down with materialistic science-as-we-know-it? photo by: Skeptiko I have an interview coming up in a minute with this guy, Jason Louv about his new book on John Dee and I wanted to give you heads-up because this is, as far as I can remember, the most confrontational interview I’ve ever published on Skeptiko and I wanted to say two things about that. First, I’m okay with that. I’m okay with some heated exchanges and some disagreements, particularly in this case because this guy has done a ton of interviews on this book and the topics we clash over most people will find surprising… particularly that he has such a strong favorable opinion about scientism,  and materialistic science-as-we-know-it. The other thing is, he’s really closed down re conspiracies. He doesn’t “believe in conspiracies,” whatever that means. I wanted to bring this up because it’s such a litmus test. If you don’t “believe in conspiracies” you are on the outside of our culture looking in because conspiracies are at the heart of culture shaping. They’re at the heart of politics, they’re at the heart of money, they’re, unfortunately, at the heart of corporate science — they’re at the heart of everything important to our culture. So, to say, “I don’t believe in conspiracies,” and at the same time to say, “I believe in magick,” is… well, I wish I could have gotten there earlier in the interview

Jeff Riddle has created a new style of podcasting aimed at creating lasting change. photo by: Skeptiko We’re Always in the Middle. Jeff Riddle: I’ve talked about this before, that “we’re in the middle”…  in 400 years people in the future are going to look at us and just think how stupid and silly we were for the things we did and believed. There’s a humility in that, in that we are moving towards something and yet we don’t know where, and so there’s this idea that we’re always in the middle. So, we’re always in motion but we don’t really know where we’re going to get to and we’re going to die without ever having gotten there, at least as far as we know here in the physical sense… Alex Tsakiris: I absolutely love this idea of we’re always in the middle… [history is one example] but obviously you’re also tapping into the deeper personal spiritual understanding of, “Hey man, we’re never going to get there. We never really are away from where we came. We’re always in the middle.” So, I think that’s really cool. (continued below) Click here for forum discussion Click here for some of Transcend website Read Excerpts: Alex Tsakiris: So, for me, step one of that process is to follow the data. I always say, “Follow the data wherever it leads,” kind of thing. But, in preparing for this episode and listening to what you’ve put together, I actually had a slightly different take on this and I love where it took me because what I realized, and this may seem really obvious, but we all have our own data. So, following the data is both, you know, the real part of following the data that’s out there, but we have our own data and not in a, kind of fake, “Every snowflake is unique,” kind of way, but in a way that, “I have some real stuff that I’ve figured out in my life experience that I bring to the table as my data and I can share that with you and you probably don’t know it and let me tell it to you,” kind of thing. So, I thought we might talk a minute or you might talk a minute about what’s your data. You mentioned the baseball thing. That’s part of your data. You know some stuff from that. Tell us about that data and then tell us what other data you have. Jeff Riddle: There’s a paradox here in that the position, the professional stance in the work that I do, and even in trying to produce these transcend episodes, is to remove myself as much as I can from it. It’s one of my beefs with the industry, is that people come in and say, “Look what I’ve done. Look at me, I’m great. I have a private jet or a fancy car,” they get on Facebook and take pictures of themselves in that way and then they use that to shame people into feeling like they don’t have what they have and that’s what gets them to buy. We’ll get into this, but I have a huge issue with that approach. I actually think it reinforces the problem. It literally, the industry that I’m in actually recreates more of the problems so that they can continue to sustain. So, there’s a dilemma there in the data, in the sense that,

Dr. Jack Hunter has blazed a new trail called paranthropology, but that’s just the start of his paradigm busting. photo by: Skeptiko Jack Hunter: It’s kind of like murky territory. I know that Gordon [White of Rune Soup], for example doesn’t like the idea of panpsychism and he, like you, was talking about panpsychism is kind of like a backdoor materialism again, at the end of the day. Alex Tsakiris: I think it’s a crutch. I think it’s the last bastion of materialism holdouts… one foot on the dock, one foot in the boat, kind of thing… Jack Hunter: It’s on the way towards animism but it’s not willing to go all the way. When we talk about panpsychism for example, we’re talking about some kind of, like a fundamental kind of consciousness, or a fundamental awareness that’s not consciousness as we understand it, it’s the basis of awareness. Whereas, when we’re coming from an animistic perspective, that other consciousness has just as much agency and intention in the world as we do, they just express themselves in different kinds of ways. So, the consciousness of a rock isn’t necessarily just some kind of, like a flatline background consciousness, but actually it possesses its own agency and intention in the same way that we do, but it expresses its agency and intention in the world in a very different way, perhaps over, like vast, vast timescales or things like that. Alex Tsakiris: This is fun because this is now an opportunity to take the conversation one step further because I’m listening to you and Gordon and all your cool thoughts on animism and I’m thinking, “But guys, you’ve missed the point. It’s on the way towards what?” Again, I mean, take these different wisdom traditions and I’ve always been interested in yoga and in the East and in particular Vedanta and non-dual kind of thinking. Hey man, all of those people, they’re saying, “Sure, spirits are here, spirits there, spirits everywhere.” On the way towards what? It’s about transcending that spiritual reality and getting to what’s next. So, it does seem to me to be somewhat of an arbitrary stopping point to say, “Ah, we’ve got it. We’ve arrived. It’s animism.” No, it’s like this discussion you were having about, does animism subsume idealism, “No, of course not, because idealism is really closer to that non-dual, vedantic kind of thing that says… it all goes into one. The wave and the ocean are separate only because we imagine them to be separate. (continued below) Click here for forum discussion Click here for some of Jack’s website Read Excerpts: Alex Tsakiris: Welcome to Skeptiko where we explore controversial science and spirituality with leading researchers, thinkers and their critics. I think we have the right guest to fill that promise today. Dr. Jack Hunter of Paranthropology fame is joining us. Jack, welcome to Skeptiko, welcome back, thanks for joining me. Jack Hunter: Thanks for having me, it’s good to be back. Alex Tsakiris: You were on a while back with this very e...